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AHill said:
[blockquote]geek2me said:
[blockquote]AHill said:
I'd say the SS PCS series is a step down from the Powermatic in terms of construction. Even if you assume the weight of the shipping containers for SS is 50 lbs, it's still 200 lbs more than a SS PCS. And the SS has 6" more fence length, so the real weight difference is in the motor and trunnion.
I'm not convinced weight alone correlates to quality - aluminum saws such as the Inca are much lighter and higher precision, for example. It's cheap to add weight - but increasing quality has a higher cost.
[/blockquote] I did not say quality. I said construction, meaning that from a structural strength and durability perspective, the additional weight usually translates to using more robust components. It is easy to use the word "Professional" when marketing. SawStop substitutes the "professional" t-glide fence for their professional series vs. the "industrial" t-glide fence for their industrial series. The size of the cast iron table top alone doesn't justify a $1000 difference between their professional series and their industrial series saws. SawStop even says that the difference is mainly weight ("200+ more pounds of Iron and Steel for heavy duty cycles, maximum stability and ultimate precision"), comprised of a larger and thicker cast iron table top, thicker gauge steel cabinet, larger trunnion, bigger handwheels, extra access panel, and a longer warranty on the motor. The "Professional" series warranty is 2 years. The Industrial series warranty is also 2 years, but 5 years for the motor. My PM2000 warranty was 5 years for everything. Apples to apples for a cabinet is PM2000 vs. the SS Industrial cabinet saw. I am not bashing SawStop quality. They make a very high quality saw. I had the option to get a SawStop. The price difference was too big to swallow. There are a lot more options now with SawStop. Buyers need to be informed on what the difference are between each SS series.
[/blockquote] Looks like many buyers have made the decision as to the value of this additional weight, as opposed to actual performance over time, along with the proprietary safety device. You didn't see the value and thus chose a different route. Sawstop table saws have now been on the market for 10+ years. I have yet to see a published article about their inferior quality or premature component failure rate. I've had my PCS since they were offered. No complaints or failures yet. Again, it replaced a Unisaw and I've seen no degradation in performance or reliability. Doug
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Tapper said:
It's clear that we have completely different views on this product.
At least we agree on that ;-) Quote:
If you haven't seen "rave" reviews about SS you haven't been paying attention.
Um, OK, but it's curious you couldn't find one to link. I've only seen about 12 reviews of the SawStop, and no "rave" reviews. Quote:
Gass didn't threaten ANYONE with lawsuits.
You are aware that he filed these lawsuits, right? Quote:
If you're interested in the real details of this story, Google it online. There are several clearly written impartial articles that lay it out.
Very familiar with the story, agree that it is clearly laid out, just trying to understand why your version differs so much from the impartial articles. Quote:
Resistance to this invention is purely political.
Sure - but so is everything Gass is doing and his attempts to force adoption. There is a reason CPSC and other agencies have been so resistant to his efforts to force adoption. The key point is that existing guards are sufficient - IF they are used. One could argue his device would protect those who choose to remove guards - but then he added the defeat switch, so it can be turned off and made useless.
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geek2me said:
The key point is that existing guards are sufficient - IF they are used. One could argue his device would protect those who choose to remove guards - but then he added the defeat switch, so it can be turned off and made useless.
That may be, but as has been said over and over again in this thread, this forum and court cases, existing guards are not used -- and on some saws cannot be used for all cuts and are so cumbersome to install and use and uninstall and re-install, they get discarded. Hence Gass and his technology. Also, the defeat key must virtually have to be turned for each cut. As far as quality, my industrial is solid and accurate.
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For me (I do not try and pick anyone elses tools - you make your own decisions) the heavy weight of the base of a PM66 or PM2000 did not make it in the same league as the SS ICS. There was no PCS available when I bought mine in 2006 so I bought the now termed ICS. PM2000   PM66  SS ICS   
Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.
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Ask me Geek2me, I ll rave about it (not Gass but the ICS). I did have a personal save, I was only using only the RK and put thumb into the blade by accident - totally my fault. Just a teeny knick. On my old saw it would have taken the tip off my thumb off upper left through mid nail if the line were drawn across the thumb. I have been using the over blade guard 99.9% since that. I did get a free brake for sending mine in so it could be studied and the data captured. I honestly don't care if people like that I have it or not. Ive never had a visitor in the shop using it with me say they dislike it though.
I disabled my brake once when I was cutting questionable insulation panels.
Someday I will prob have a Euro panel saw too but will cost 3X as much as an ICS for a super nice big one. That is better safety too when you can be even farther from the blade while using it.
When I load up the CNC its cuts are even safer than the panel saw because you are no where near the tools.
I am definitely not perfect but I just try and be safe and I try to learn to be more safe as I go.
Id love people to invent safer products that don't compete with patents of products out there. In 10 years nothing has made it to the major tool market that has done that. There has been some interesting ideas though.
Where is that crazy euro panel saw that had a similar blade drop technology??
Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.
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Much of the dislike for Steve Gass and his technology seems to have been generated by his lobbying efforts with CPSC and other government agencies to get his technology mandated, which would restrict competition and result in him making pots of money. I am a SS owner and while I admit that even I find his lobbying a bit unsavory, Steve Gass is not the first to try and use government regulators to gain a competitive advantage, nor will he be the last. Some would claim that his attempts to stifle the competition is "un-American". I would argue that it is as American as apple pie. It is a process that is ingrained in our system and goes waaaay back. If he failed with the regulators, it's probably because he didn't throw enough money at it. 
A retirement dedicated to fine woodworking and bad golf.
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geek2me said:
[blockquote]Tapper said:
It's clear that we have completely different views on this product.
At least we agree on that ;-) Quote:
If you haven't seen "rave" reviews about SS you haven't been paying attention.
Um, OK, but it's curious you couldn't find one to link. I've only seen about 12 reviews of the SawStop, and no "rave" reviews. Quote:
Gass didn't threaten ANYONE with lawsuits.
You are aware that he filed these lawsuits, right? Quote:
If you're interested in the real details of this story, Google it online. There are several clearly written impartial articles that lay it out.
Very familiar with the story, agree that it is clearly laid out, just trying to understand why your version differs so much from the impartial articles. Quote:
Resistance to this invention is purely political.
Sure - but so is everything Gass is doing and his attempts to force adoption. There is a reason CPSC and other agencies have been so resistant to his efforts to force adoption. The key point is that existing guards are sufficient - IF they are used. One could argue his device would protect those who choose to remove guards - but then he added the defeat switch, so it can be turned off and made useless.
[/blockquote] Sorry, you've just put yourself in the category with all the other "haters." I've laid it out - you don't like it and you misrepresent what I've said. Have it your way. Doug
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you know what I think is the most ironic?
The patents either start to expire or will expire ~8/2021
It could be held in the courts that long.....
so WGARA any longer unless the CSPC changes direction in the next few yrs..... nothing much will happen that will affect owners of non SS saws...
Let us not seek the Republican Answer , or the Democratic answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept our own responsibility for the future John F. Kennedy
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Tapper said:
I've laid it out - you don't like it and you misrepresent what I've said. Have it your way.
You "laid out" your opinion without support and I asked why your view differed from the objective reports. You responded by labeling me a "hater" rather than having an adult discussion and supporting your position. For example, you claimed "rave reviews" but would not even cite one - and the twenty or so I found are not "rave" reviews. Seems like "your mind is made up and the facts won't change that". You are entitled to your opinion, but it may be helpful to understand your position conflicts with the facts you implied you referenced but did not cite.
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