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+-- Thread: New ICS Sawstop a little rant (/showthread.php?tid=7326158)
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Handplanesandmore - 12-13-2016
(12-13-2016, 07:13 PM)AHill Wrote: My PM2000 was made in Taiwan. No issues at all with scratches.
SAWSTOP. like PM2000, is made in Taiwan. By Chinese cast, did you people mean Taiwan cast. No, China and Taiwan are not the same country, regardless of what others may have told you. People in the two countries can not travel freely to each other.
By the way, who said US steel cast surfaces don't scratch. The old Delta saw -- 100% made in the US -- in the school I teach scratches in and out (exgg.).
Simon
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - JGrout - 12-13-2016
I expect a different foundry
or a bad casting
I recall the early days of Taiwan castings doing weird things They did get better at it
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Brian in sunny FL - 12-13-2016
Don't assume because the saw is made in Taiwan the cast iron isn't from China.
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Handplanesandmore - 12-13-2016
Very very unlikely here. What is to gain? The labor differentials between China And Taiwan are not as huge as those between China and any US companies. I will believe in it only when someone from SawStop confirms it. Hopefully, the OP will contact SawStop to determine if the scratches are normal (the OP has posted no photos of the scratches, has he?). I don't have immediate access to my SawStop or I can compare mine with his (my saw is over 5 years old).
Simon
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Huxleywood - 12-13-2016
(12-13-2016, 09:12 PM)Handplanesandmore Wrote: SAWSTOP. like PM2000, is made in Taiwan. By Chinese cast, did you people mean Taiwan cast. No, China and Taiwan are not the same country, regardless of what others may have told you. People in the two countries can not travel freely to each other.
By the way, who said US steel cast surfaces don't scratch. The old Delta saw -- 100% made in the US -- in the school I teach scratches in and out (exgg.).
Simon
Whether one believes Taiwan and China are separate countries depends on whether you subscribe to the One China policy which most world governments do but I certainly understand the political/diplomatic issues associated with post 1992 China Taiwan relations. In any event there is significant bi-lateral trade between the countries and steel and cast iron is something that flows both directions, Taiwan buys a lot of steel from Japan due to the high quality and buys a lot of steel and cast from China due to the lower cost for the lower quality product. While China's labor cost have been moving upwards toward parity with Taiwan the real difference between the two in "dirty industry" is the environmental regulation costs where China still has a big economic advantage, though it will surely close the gap over time.
In any event my point was about aging gray cast iron which I think has been exaggerated in terms of the US iron and it also overlooks the aging time reduction with proper alloying.
Any anecdotal comparison between your table and the OP's table is essentially worthless, now if you both can perform a Brinell test then there might be something to discuss.
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Handplanesandmore - 12-14-2016
(12-13-2016, 11:35 PM)Huxleywood Wrote: Whether one believes Taiwan and China are separate countries depends on whether you subscribe to the One China policy
Any anecdotal comparison between your table and the OP's table is essentially worthless, now if you both can perform a Brinell test then there might be something to discuss.
The One China policy doesn't change the fact that people in the two places live under two totally different systems and are not in the same country. If they were, made in Taiwan and made in China goods would be considered the same by consumers, woodworkers included. I am not saying they should or should not be two different countries but as a tool consumer, I certainly consider them two different origins. Chinese and Taiwan cast irons are hence two different things. Unless SawStop comes out and says their tables are made in Taiwan out of cast iron imported from China, your grand theory is just good on paper.
No where did I suggest that a comparison between my table and the OP's would solve his concerns. But a comparison of the photos would show if his problems are unique to him. On the other hand, I consider the suggestion of a Brinell hardness test totally worthless because there is no way one would get that test done on my table.
Simon
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Huxleywood - 12-14-2016
(12-14-2016, 12:16 AM)Handplanesandmore Wrote: The One China policy doesn't change the fact that people in the two places live under two totally different systems and are not in the same country. If they were, made in Taiwan and made in China goods would be considered the same by consumers, woodworkers included. I am not saying they should or should not be two different countries but as a tool consumer, I certainly consider them two different origins. Chinese and Taiwan cast irons are hence two different things. Unless SawStop comes out and says their tables are made in Taiwan out of cast iron imported from China, your grand theory is just good on paper.
No where did I suggest that a comparison between my table and the OP's would solve his concerns. But a comparison of the photos would show if his problems are unique to him. On the other hand, I consider the suggestion of a Brinell hardness test totally worthless because there is no way one would get that test done on my table.
Simon
No need for this to devolve into a policy debate but you keep ascribing attributes to the one or two countries that are more myth than fact currently. My grand theory is simply the castings could have come from either area of the country but that has zero to do with the quality of the castings, gray CI is low end foundry product not some uber-alloy steel.
How would pictures show his problem is unique, that is purely anecdotal. The suggestion of the Brinell test was just to point out without such testing the state of your table versus his means absolutely nothing and was meant as hyperbole to point out the comparison of to tables via picture is worthless. IF his casting is unusually soft it is extremely unlikely that it is unique at a minimum it would be a lot problem and thus chances of one casting being soft is extraordinarily slim.
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - fredhargis - 12-14-2016
Boy, did this one ever go off the rails (well, maybe no more than any other SS thread)! To the OP, while my knee jerk reaction is you are being extremely picky, I can say mine (SS ICS after about 18 months of use didn't have any scratches to speak of on the table. It would be interesting to send a pic to SS and ask....or even show us, I am curious about it.
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - EricU - 12-14-2016
I'm definitely in the "tool, not jewel" camp. Of course, you have to say it "joule," so it rhymes.
I'm assuming the scratches are cosmetic, and not representing displaced metal which would show up on the work. I always thought the finish on my PM66 was a bit overboard, why have a shiny top? It's a dull mirror finish. I don't really know how they did it, they must have used a polisher after the blanchard grinding. Granted, shiny means that it's marginally less likely to rust, but only a little bit. The PM66 does seem to be rather hard for cast, and I don't think I've ever seen cast with a near mirror finish on it before. It's certainly harder than any of the machine tools I use, and some of those are high-end tools. The classic unisaws certainly didn't have a shiny finish. The SS saw at work has a matte finish on it, but it's a lower-end model.
I probably would check with the SS people. However, from what I've heard, they may not be too understanding. So maybe avoid the frustration unless it's really an issue that would show up in the work.
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Earl Kelly - 12-14-2016
Wow, I guess like all Sawstop threads, there's so many different opinions. I do understand the cast iron may not be to the same specs as US cast but still it is cast iron. I would hope after 30-40 yrs of producing power tools for the US market the standards would have improved.
The scratches, at least the bad ones can be felt with your fingernail. Lots of little superficial that don't bother me.
I have not contacted Sawstop yet. I've only had the saw setup and running a few days. I did complain to the Dealer, same one I bought the PM66 from in '98. According to him I'm the first to complain. I will be bringing this up with Sawstop. Don't know what they can do, unless there are more complaints. First I'm cleaning the top down. I have Boeshield and a coat of paste wax on it. I've heard good things about Renaissance Wax and going to put a coat of that on it and see how that works.
Thanks for the positive/constructive comments and those not so much. I did love my PM66 and would have kept it if I had space, but I didn't so did next best thing and sold it to a Friend.