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+-- Thread: Microbevel on a chisel is no good for bevel down work (/showthread.php?tid=7366802)
RE: Microbevel on a chisel is no good for bevel down work - Handplanesandmore - 12-29-2021
(12-29-2021, 07:11 AM)wmickley Wrote: Do you do a lot of bevel down work?
Not as much as Paul Sellers who strops and "rounds" his chisel edge.
I freehand and microbevel everything from plane blades to chisels, except my Japanese chisels. No stropping except carving tools. How do I sharpen? Think Rob Cosman but we aren't exactly the same (I think he uses figure 8 and goes with two stones only). We do agree in two things ----- actual edge angle is not critical and there's no need to spend HOURS (exagg.) on sharpening. We're woodworkers not sharpeners!
Simon
RE: Microbevel on a chisel is no good for bevel down work - Handplanesandmore - 12-29-2021
(12-29-2021, 08:38 AM)Derek Cohen Wrote: A micro bevel is just a tiny bevel - a secondary micro bevel will alter the path of the bevel.Even if a secondary microbevel changes the path of entry, unless the secondary bevel is excessive, the effect on the end result is negligible. For one thing, the chisel is held by hand and there is no guarantee that the hand wouldn't change the working angle even so slightly as the user pares or chops. Working with wood is forgiving; don't think like a machinist when working by hand.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Simon
RE: Microbevel on a chisel is no good for bevel down work - Timberwolf - 12-29-2021
(12-29-2021, 09:43 AM)Bruce Haugen Wrote: A bit of an aside, you might find Clickspring’s method interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Mp1fNzIT8
..........................
I have followed clickspring on many of his youtube videos..he's a very clever guy and a fine craftsman..
Back in the days of flintlock rifles, the mountain men wrapped the frizzens of their rifles in leather and put them in a charcoal fire for hours to harden them..The case hardened surface produced was only a few thou deep tho, and the hardness would " wear away" by the flint strike in use and fail to spark well enough to ignite the power in the pan, so it had to be renewed periodically...But I am pretty sure this knowledge was known long before that period...
Case hardening video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_bXiIfcBWs
RE: Microbevel on a chisel is no good for bevel down work - wmickley - 12-29-2021
(12-29-2021, 12:23 PM)Handplanesandmore Wrote: Even if a secondary microbevel changes the path of entry, unless the secondary bevel is excessive, the effect on the end result is negligible. For one thing, the chisel is held by hand and there is no guarantee that the hand wouldn't change the working angle even so slightly as the user pares or chops. Working with wood is forgiving; don't think like a machinist when working by hand.
Simon
Talk about ivory tower.
RE: Microbevel on a chisel is no good for bevel down work - iclark - 12-29-2021
(12-29-2021, 08:38 AM)Derek Cohen Wrote: For a start, a "micro bevel" is simply a very small bevel. What everyone here is referring to is a "secondary bevel". To be more specific, a micro secondary bevel.
Secondly, every time one uses a honing guide, they create a micro secondary bevel.
The alternative to this is a flat bevel (such as Japanese chisels), one that start off as a single primary bevel, and is polished without altering the angle. Or hone directly on a hollow grind. That will create a micro bevel without it being "secondary". Altering the bevel angle creates a secondary bevel. It is no longer coplanar.
In any event, when using a chisel bevel down, a secondary bevel will interfere if you ride the bevel. You need the bevel to be coplanar.
One uses a chisel bevel down when working into tight areas or when the need for precision is utmost. Think of working a hinge mortice.
The bevel directs where the blade will cut. With a vertical chisel, bevel down will travel quite differently to bevel up. A micro bevel is just a tiny bevel - a secondary micro bevel will alter the path of the bevel.
Regards from Perth
Derek
This is how Alan Lacer taught lathe skew chisel sharpening: hollow grind to sharpen and then maintain the sharpness by hand with a stone using the front and back of the grind for registration. When the hollow is sharpened away, it is time to go back to the grinder.
As Derek said, for a wood chisel at the bench, this gives the co-planar support for bevel-down work into corners.
RE: Microbevel on a chisel is no good for bevel down work - Handplanesandmore - 12-29-2021
(12-29-2021, 03:25 PM)wmickley Wrote: Talk about ivory tower.
I humbly suggest that you got confused with the wooden tower (in off-white color) that I woodwork in.
Simon
RE: Microbevel on a chisel is no good for bevel down work - Handplanesandmore - 12-29-2021
This fellow had built a piece for the White House while he was living in the States. I don't like the look of his round edges, but I don't doubt that his chisels can do bevel down as well as corner work. https://paulsellers.com/2012/01/sharpening-chisels-forget-weaker-micro-bevels/
I don't do hollow ground but I also don't doubt that hollow ground chisels work very well. What really matters is whose hands a chisel is in, microbelvelled or not, stropped or not, and freehand or not.
Simon
RE: Microbevel on a chisel is no good for bevel down work - bandit571 - 12-29-2021
A bad worker blames his tools
A good worker just rolls up his sleeves, and gets to work.
Similar to Charlie Daniels song: A rich man goes to college, and a poor man goes to work.....
And so...If you don't like the way I sharpen, then just leave this long haired woodworker alone....
(Long Haired Country Boy......usually played by The Charlie Daniels Band)
RE: Microbevel on a chisel is no good for bevel down work - Handplanesandmore - 12-29-2021
(12-29-2021, 05:23 PM)bandit571 Wrote: A bad worker blames his tools
A good worker just rolls up his sleeves, and gets to work.
Can't agree more. I can practically chisel a good work with a sharpened screwdriver better than some of those who own (aka collect) all their fancy boutique style top of the line chisels.
Some of these people are always struggling with their new toy in their hand wondering whether to use a machine or a jig or freehand to hone the edge, whether a microbevel (or is it a secondary bevel) is a good thing or not, whether stropping is needed, and if so, whether the green or the white compound is right for them, and whether they should have two sets of chisels, one honed for bevel down work only, and one for....
I don't blame them, because they get confused when the professors are in charge.
Oh, I forgot to mention the ruler trick! No wonder nothing is really used after the box of new toys is opened.
Simon
RE: Microbevel on a chisel is no good for bevel down work - bandit571 - 12-30-2021
Sometimes, one has to pause the search (Crusade?) for the perfect edge....and just get back to work...
[attachment=39632]
Cleaning up a rough sawn profile/edge.....chisel can go where the #101 can't...afterwards?
[attachment=39633]
Has a simple, single, flat bevel....no micro-anything. 24mm wide Aldi's...
Back IS indeed flat...took all of 10 minutes to do....shop hasn't the time for "Hours" for such a simple task..
[attachment=39634]
That "smudge"? Is where the wood was rubbing...nothing more.
I expect all my edged tools to be ready to work, when I am ready to work....all I ever ask of them. I do use the time between projects, both to maintain the tools, maybe clean the place up a bit...and any edges that MIGHT be getting dull, will get a refresh. Normal shop time is around 1-3 hours....until my legs, back, or the Laundry says I am done for the day. When I do go to the shop...there is no messing around, I am there to work...get the tasks for that day done, and maybe get ready for the next slate of tasks to do.....