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+-- Thread: Can't do overlapping with alcohol dye (/showthread.php?tid=7373414)
RE: Can't do overlapping with alcohol dye - jteneyck - 07-09-2023
(07-09-2023, 05:28 PM)Bencuri Wrote: But is this alcohol dye? :OOOO
If it is, spraying does seem to be the proper method. Maybe I will put the packs I purchased aside and will test them when I buy a sprayer.
However I did think the problem and suggested solutions over, and I concluded the real problem may not be the darkening because of the overlapping. It is more or less controllable with care. The bigger problem is that in case of overlapping, the dye always tend to accumulate along a dark thin line at the edge of the overlapping, that is not always obvious when you finish applying the dye. That is the real annoying problem with all this. Interestingly the water dye does not do that, sometimes a bit darker on overlapped areas, but I rarely see lines formed. If this could be eliminated, brushing or sponging would work, too, without needing to wipe, and ruining the color. Do you think there is a solution for that? To control the movement of the dye in this sense? I thought about using mineral spirits to dissolve it, but maybe that will just lengthen the drying time, but not stop the dye to form lines, that are visible on my photo. Any chemical that can help?
Like others here, I use Transtint dyes which are soluble in both water and alcohol. That allows flexibility in how you use it. I used Transtint dye in alcohol when I sprayed the door I showed.
I think I get better grain highlights when I use water to dissolve the Transtint. The longer open time of water allows greater penetration into the wood.
You will get those lines you are talking about when you leave too much wet dye on the surface. This is really easy to do if using a brush to apply the dye. It will migrate to the dry areas and form a line, or ring, etc, depending upon how you left it or the shape of the edge, hole, etc it flows up against. This is what I meant by technique and the need to practice. This is where spraying has an advantage IF you only spray on what the surface can absorb, whether you use alcohol or water. But if you spray too much, more than the wood can quickly absorb, the excess will run to the dry areas and leave those edges.
When doing it by hand it's best to flood it on and then wipe off the excess with the same sponge after wringing it out. Pay attention to edges, holes, etc., not to leave any excess that will form those dark edges. Technique and practice. You don't need to look for a non-existent magic chemical.
Water and/or alcohol soluble dyes will not dissolve in mineral spirits. You would need an oil soluble dye to use mineral spirits or other non-polar solvents.
John
RE: Can't do overlapping with alcohol dye - Bencuri - 07-09-2023
(07-09-2023, 07:41 PM)jteneyck Wrote: When doing it by hand it's best to flood it on and then wipe off the excess with the same sponge after wringing it out. Pay attention to edges, holes, etc., not to leave any excess that will form those dark edges.
This does not work for me. When I wipe off, too much of the dye comes off, and in case of larger surfaces, some part already dried when you get back to it to wipe, making the color coverage uneven again.
I will wait for the sprayer then to try it with that.
RE: Can't do overlapping with alcohol dye - jteneyck - 07-10-2023
(07-09-2023, 08:01 PM)Bencuri Wrote: This does not work for me. When I wipe off, too much of the dye comes off, and in case of larger surfaces, some part already dried when you get back to it to wipe, making the color coverage uneven again.
I will wait for the sprayer then to try it with that.
Then you are doing it wrong. FLOOD it on and wait a minute. If any area gets dry add more. It will absorb what it can and wiping it won't remove what it absorbed if you use the same sponge after squeezing out the excess. And if you flood it on it can't dry before you wipe off the excess unless you are trying to do a very large area. A dining room tabletop or side of a cabinet will not be a problem.
How fine are you sanding the wood before applying the dye? Anything more than 320 is too high, and for most woods 220 is plenty fine enough. If you sand it too fine, it can't absorb the dye.
John
RE: Can't do overlapping with alcohol dye - Bencuri - 07-11-2023
(07-10-2023, 11:45 AM)jteneyck Wrote: Then you are doing it wrong. FLOOD it on and wait a minute. If any area gets dry add more. It will absorb what it can and wiping it won't remove what it absorbed if you use the same sponge after squeezing out the excess. And if you flood it on it can't dry before you wipe off the excess unless you are trying to do a very large area. A dining room tabletop or side of a cabinet will not be a problem.
How fine are you sanding the wood before applying the dye? Anything more than 320 is too high, and for most woods 220 is plenty fine enough. If you sand it too fine, it can't absorb the dye.
John
Flooding only works for specific sides. I usually need all surface finishing, in that case flooding is not useful, when you need to paint all sides in one lump, and all sides will be visible when ready.
I sand with 80 grit max if I sand, or I finish with smoothing plane. Depends on situation.
RE: Can't do overlapping with alcohol dye - jteneyck - 07-11-2023
(07-11-2023, 02:47 PM)Bencuri Wrote: Flooding only works for specific sides. I usually need all surface finishing, in that case flooding is not useful, when you need to paint all sides in one lump, and all sides will be visible when ready.
I sand with 80 grit max if I sand, or I finish with smoothing plane. Depends on situation.
Do one side at a time. This isn't rocket science. You keep finding reasons the process won't work rather than looking for ways to make it work. There's a whole bunch of people who apply dye by hand successfully.
John
RE: Can't do overlapping with alcohol dye - Bencuri - 07-13-2023
(07-11-2023, 03:05 PM)jteneyck Wrote: Do one side at a time. This isn't rocket science. You keep finding reasons the process won't work rather than looking for ways to make it work. There's a whole bunch of people who apply dye by hand successfully.
John
I tried bit it doesn't work for me. If you do it in parts, even if you take care on a specific side, a small amount will leak onto the other sides at the edges, and will form a line that you saw on my photos on the edge, even if you wipe. So the side surface will be lighter, the edge darker.
You need to be careful with the success of others. It does matter what your aim with the finish. Most painting online I see is done on one side, that is the easiest. I did see some doing alcohol dying on all sides with a paper towel. That is a good method, but still I had the dark lines on edges that way sometimes, and if it is sometimes, that is not enough for me, I need guaranteed methods so to say. I am finishing delicate things, while these methods will be useful on a garden furniture or fence element, on a delicate tool handle or other object that people pick up and watch closely, or in case of an instrument, this does not seem to be a proper method. I checked how they dye instruments, I did not really find a method for alcohol dye. Mostly water based or other unusual methods. But it's a pity, because the colors they offer here for alcohol dye are nicer than water based.
RE: Can't do overlapping with alcohol dye - jteneyck - 07-13-2023
(07-13-2023, 03:06 AM)Bencuri Wrote: I tried bit it doesn't work for me. If you do it in parts, even if you take care on a specific side, a small amount will leak onto the other sides at the edges, and will form a line that you saw on my photos on the edge, even if you wipe. So the side surface will be lighter, the edge darker.
You need to be careful with the success of others. It does matter what your aim with the finish. Most painting online I see is done on one side, that is the easiest. I did see some doing alcohol dying on all sides with a paper towel. That is a good method, but still I had the dark lines on edges that way sometimes, and if it is sometimes, that is not enough for me, I need guaranteed methods so to say. I am finishing delicate things, while these methods will be useful on a garden furniture or fence element, on a delicate tool handle or other object that people pick up and watch closely, or in case of an instrument, this does not seem to be a proper method. I checked how they dye instruments, I did not really find a method for alcohol dye. Mostly water based or other unusual methods. But it's a pity, because the colors they offer here for alcohol dye are nicer than water based.
Alcohol dye done by hand:
![[Image: AIL4fc-WmwVyNNmfXF7h8R8OLYFzHirtf9GjB-Pf...authuser=0]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc-WmwVyNNmfXF7h8R8OLYFzHirtf9GjB-PfouJbXpZCp44-1FF8kwE9o9XQY_NPESrvncrbgY4PVwx9o25wktrKiMlpbI9rWGspd1Q1CzUgSP12KbBWwRA2pxrOFQC0UFkUeEviucJBv6WY_KPrPaqb8Q=w600-h800-s-no?authuser=0)
![[Image: AIL4fc_8f2KrLgDFpDmvgNN3QQSUyAMGph7Y-mAw...authuser=0]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc_8f2KrLgDFpDmvgNN3QQSUyAMGph7Y-mAwjp3c4JqkkjXEdSXGwB7E8PXohWh1Lw63pg3xcy1iqIqJ7GsCdRoooEzasqBBHjuUMyE1gMJqRkQrF_VoxFlSPcEbp2lYfT3AN9ZJXTD-AskvKwCbnamQqQ=w600-h800-s-no?authuser=0)
![[Image: AIL4fc_LD5y2R4QJjUKO3qmai3O0TLXW5kHd6ugb...authuser=0]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc_LD5y2R4QJjUKO3qmai3O0TLXW5kHd6ugb2imtkQ4XphRicTlzpNGeziNg6wJ-BHiQUUELGuWZywjqyTW8adNs_SUXWqb_5i9yvogULu1iMGNn3mo5IUsKazSoKnTBROZfMFGP0ySZ8U6JsKvcYJ3ASA=w800-h600-s-no?authuser=0)
![[Image: AIL4fc81tw3YizyCH8K5uzHA-18nHFFQEW2-6gQe...authuser=0]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc81tw3YizyCH8K5uzHA-18nHFFQEW2-6gQe4xn4VnGSNK7xQTsLqKuDcDnNvTDe73KdrliKDRfwY3CfjcLgqQrbVLKoNbp5S0ryX_-qaAwZhnsuYtSrDOhssMxVpEosahIF2jgn19gmydrdgeeRzMFDog=w800-h600-s-no?authuser=0)
![[Image: AIL4fc-26M7FHuLDcg3VrnBW1HmzlA7Xc1h014Vy...authuser=0]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc-26M7FHuLDcg3VrnBW1HmzlA7Xc1h014VywNU3pOQrq51p2hgMA0QQCW6g0C2kKNY0U3jNk-pF6cdOBINKBMq6sRLcK4ZGxyVzNDU9xowMTpGY0zqZq24nqr8mOP3jDYE2h3Whx_Uwo2jUJ1ZXQR_iew=w1586-h893-s-no?authuser=0)
![[Image: AIL4fc-UhKWKzw3lct-5B2jIn-dhGXOxVEDSUlnc...authuser=0]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc-UhKWKzw3lct-5B2jIn-dhGXOxVEDSUlnc9GTOQw8RC7cNhFOW6ezLW5O6-IhGTFXE6vMjtfqE1RNskIAn__87bivhp0lO_-b1Gfxf2nEPriMqJbb0oNblZdO9ROx-lWWSgdfyvs7AbsXIXhTmq_cedA=w1190-h893-s-no?authuser=0)
John
RE: Can't do overlapping with alcohol dye - Bencuri - 07-14-2023
Impressive but still would be a mistery for me how to achieve this. For example, the table top: how can you color that with flooding? You may need to pour a ton of dye, and most will flow off, resulting in the alcohol to evaporate until you finish. And there will be a big mess.
RE: Can't do overlapping with alcohol dye - Bencuri - 07-14-2023
This one is also interesting, kind of unbelieveable for me:
https://youtu.be/cQZprL5qVt0?t=44
To see the way she is overlapping with the dye, and then the camera showing the top later being even. Well. I see it but I wonder how that is possible? If I do it here at home, with such a brush, once you do that overlapping, no way that the surface would dry that even at the end. No matter what you do, the darker and lighter stripes won't match in depth. Even if you paint the light stripe over again, they won't match, you will see a brightness difference in the end, and on the border where the stripes meet there will be dark lines running. And we still not consider when you change sides, once you move on, the meeting edges will look terrible too. This is just so odd to see this being that even.
RE: Can't do overlapping with alcohol dye - jteneyck - 07-14-2023
(07-14-2023, 01:26 AM)Bencuri Wrote: Impressive but still would be a mistery for me how to achieve this. For example, the table top: how can you color that with flooding? You may need to pour a ton of dye, and most will flow off, resulting in the alcohol to evaporate until you finish. And there will be a big mess.
You do it as I said. Take your sponge saturated with the dye and wipe it on liberally. Some flows off the edges, but not a lot. In this case, you don't care if some gets on the bottom because it won't show. Ring out the sponge and wipe off the excess. It dries as you see it. This really isn't rocket science.
Practice. But if you are convinced it can't be done with the alcohol based dyes available to you, although I'm not sure why you can't buy Transtint through Amazon or directly from Homestead Finishing, then move on to water based dyes. You might be surprised how good it looks after you apply the final finish. With Transtint the color looks better to me when I use water to dilute it. Such as:
![[Image: AIL4fc-wXQIR3qjzrD-4ChPVsCGFCgm_LWbi7px3...authuser=0]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc-wXQIR3qjzrD-4ChPVsCGFCgm_LWbi7px334baLStfs0mWqQmWV-3WxX8xsyQ5JyFDYE-R97sEJdAYVyyu75eFDSTvjhe1ptRUr7c2j172aih6wS8-9n7KjRI3dvIgQSgWq9OCHhuNq-TMJikFM4E1vA=w670-h893-s-no?authuser=0)
John