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RE: Sharpening - Tapper - 05-19-2024
(05-19-2024, 06:45 PM)CStan Wrote: That's a more or less standard procedure, but 35* is too high IMO. 25* grind with a 30* secondary are numbers you will see repeatedly. Paring chisels and straight carvers are ground and honed at lower angles. Using a single bevel is perfectly fine and you might even like it better.
Often thought about this. Many, many years ago I first became aware of woodworking helping my dad build wooden boats under a carport in our yard when I was in high school. 14 foot speed hulls we used for duck hunting in the winter and fishing and water skiing during the summer. He had two planes - a Stanley #4 and a Stanley block plane, which he used to great effect (I still have them). I vividly remember him sharpening the irons on an oil stone. Fine on one side and coarse on the other. He could make them sing. AFAIK no secondary bevels on either one. Hand planing wasn't as sophisticated back then I suppose.
I sharpened three plane irons this afternoon. A Stanley #4C, the equivalent Millers Falls smooth bottom, and a Stanley #5C. Found a finer grit sanding disc (3500?) to finish off the secondary bevels. Some test runs on a piece of scrap QSWO, 3/4" on edge seemed to go well. I'll do some more work on more plane irons tomorrow.
Right now, after some tweaking and a few additional discs, I think I'll try the Worksharp 3000 system for a while and see how it goes. I have the attachment for the wider irons but haven't tried it yet.
Doug
RE: Sharpening - Timberwolf - 05-19-2024
(05-19-2024, 09:37 PM)Tapper Wrote: Often thought about this. Many, many years I first became aware of woodworking helping my dad build wooden boats under a carport in our yard when I was in high school. 14 foot speed hulls we used for duck hunting in the winter and fishing and water skiing during the summer. He had two planes - a Stanley #4 and a Stanley block plane, which he used to great effect (I still have them). I vividly remember him sharpening the irons on an oil stone. Fine on one side and coarse on the other. He could make them sing. AFAIK no secondary bevels on either one. Hand planing wasn't as sophisticated back then I suppose..................
I sharpened three plane irons this afternoon. A Stanley #4C, the equivalent Millers Falls smooth bottom, and a Stanley #5C. Found a finer grit sanding disc (3500?) to finish off the secondary bevels. Some test runs on a piece of scrap QSWO, 3/4" on edge seemed to go well. I'll do some more work on more plane irons tomorrow.
Right now, after some tweaking and a few additional discs, I think I'll try the Worksharp 3000 system for a while and see how it goes. I have the attachment for the wider irons but haven't tried it yet.
Doug
Doug, I also have a WorkSharp that I use with 6" diamond lap discs. I don't have a leather disc for it because the machine is not reversible and it would be easy for the disc to stab or slice and destroy the leather..if you try a diamond disc I know you would like it. Nothing in this world cuts like a diamond. I also have a few 8" diamond discs for my Veritas MKII...but for the final edge, it's back to the muslin buff. My Jet wet sharpener and the 8" Tormek I have pretty much take a back seat anymore, when I am in a hurry. I don't "jig up" for anything..it's freehand all the way for me.
RE: Sharpening - Nordic - 05-19-2024
Sharpening disclaimer - I am far from being an expert. But I have lots of uneducated opinions…
I use a variety of methods these days - but generally I use a Tormek grinder with its various jigs, and often will follow up with oil stones to get a keener grind. The Tormek does a good job for most utility edges and for restoring or establishing a bevel, but sometimes doesn’t seem quite enough on its own for certain tools in the hard, grainy, or poorer quality hardwoods I usually find myself using.
I was taught young using oil stones, and still think they work best for me once the bevel is established. I have carborundum, India, lily white washita, and translucent Arkansas stones and usually follow up with a a leather strop. I do like using a tight muslin wheel on the grinder for polishing like Jack mentioned once in a while- I think I may have picked that up from his advice some years back. It works well but is easy to mess up with too unless you’re careful.
I do have an old vice type honing jig I still use, especially when re-establishing a bevel, but do a lot of it freehand after that. The lily white is my favorite for knives and for general maintenance of the edge after the initial sharpening. I only re-do the bevel when my freehand maintenance doesn’t seem to bring the edge back as well as it should, which isn’t really too incredibly often. The steel makes a difference - some of the (mostly older) chisels and blades I have will hold a finer edge much longer than others.
I have some shaped India and Arkansas oil stones and a DMT TCKIT-F diamond kit I use for curved edges. I have often used the lathe, a dowel with sandpaper, a grinder, or a belt/disc/spindle sander when restoring a bevel - whatever appears will work best (or isn’t buried under). I just work the edge from coarse to fine.
My next big sharpening project is a scorp, it needs a new bevel ground - that should be interesting to do. I’m considering changing it from an inner bevel to an outer one…
I still keep a piece of glass to use sandpaper on, though I haven’t used it in some time - it works well for certain circumstances. I also have some water stones, but I’ve never been happy with them. It’s not for a lack of trying, and they were of decent quality.
If I were wanting to expand now, I would look seriously at diamond systems, but I have far more sharpening tools than I need. Overall, I think one just has to figure out which system works best for them, as there is little consensus on which one truly is best.
RE: Sharpening - Timberwolf - 05-19-2024
(05-19-2024, 06:45 PM)CStan Wrote: That's a more or less standard procedure, but 35* is too high IMO. 25* grind with a 30* secondary are numbers you will see repeatedly. Paring chisels and straight carvers are ground and honed at lower angles. Using a single bevel is perfectly fine and you might even like it better.
......................
Using a single bevel is perfectly fine and you might even like it better.
I agee...let the steel tell you what angle to use...the lowest angle always produces the "sharpest" edge, but it may not be as long lasting because of the nature of the steel and the hardness of the wood. The sharpest edge may chip or fold, in which case a micro-bevel may solve the problem. But I don't start out by deliberately blunting my edge with a micro-bevel..That comes after the wood dulls the edge too quickly to suit me.
RE: Sharpening - Tapper - 05-19-2024
(05-19-2024, 10:23 PM)Timberwolf Wrote: .................
Doug, I also have a WorkSharp that I use with 6" diamond lap discs. I don't have a leather disc for it because the machine is not reversible and it would be easy for the disc to stab or slice and destroy the leather..if you try a diamond disc I know you would like it. Nothing in this world cuts like a diamond. I also have a few 8" diamond discs for my Veritas MKII...but for the final edge, it's back to the muslin buff. My Jet wet sharpener and the 8" Tormek I have pretty much take a back seat anymore, when I am in a hurry. I don't "jig up" for anything..it's freehand all the way for me.
Jack, do you have a link to these diamond discs? Amazon? Do they stick to the glass plates like the others?
Thanks,
Doug
RE: Sharpening - CStan - 05-20-2024
(05-19-2024, 11:08 PM)Timberwolf Wrote: ......................
Using a single bevel is perfectly fine and you might even like it better.
I agee...let the steel tell you what angle to use...the lowest angle always produces the "sharpest" edge, but it may not be as long lasting because of the nature of the steel and the hardness of the wood. The sharpest edge may chip or fold, in which case a micro-bevel may solve the problem. But I don't start out by deliberately blunting my edge with a micro-bevel..That comes after the wood dulls the edge too quickly to suit me.
I hollow grind and tip up when honing. I never grind to a feather edge. If I get a nick, I take it out on a coarse oilstone and then grind the hollow back in to just behind the edge leaving the rest for the stones. I feel for the hollow on an oilstone, feel the "click" and then tip up.
All that said, my edges were honestly probably better when I used an Eclipse jig (all those years ago) and a single bevel at 25* and did it all on sandpaper. One less electric tool. It wasn't really slower given the speed sandpaper cuts/polishes steel. My edges certainly were not holding me back.
RE: Sharpening - Timberwolf - 05-20-2024
(05-19-2024, 11:29 PM)Tapper Wrote: Jack, do you have a link to these diamond discs? Amazon? Do they stick to the glass plates like the others?
Thanks,
Doug
............
Doug, I buy mine from Amazon...They have the best prices I have found and also the best selection. They are all steel, about 12 ga in thickness and very flat, with a 1/2" hole. Plated with diamond on one side. They do not need to be stuck to a glass plate...they are thick enough to use by themselves. I use mine dry, but you can use WD40 as a lube if you want to...If using them dry, have a brush handy to dust off the swarf occasionally. It's a cheap and effective way to get into diamond sharpening. IMO, it makes "rubbing steel on stone" a big waste of time. They are also good for sharpening carbide...like router and lathe tools...anything carbide...If I sound enthusiastic, it's because I am and want other woodworkers to know about them.
Just go to the Amazon site, and search for "diamond laps"...
Years ago I was interested in the lapidary hobby, and used diamond paste on a lapping disc made of copper...The diamond "embedded" in the softer copper and was super for putting the highest gloss on gemstones. It also puts a very keen edge on the hardest steel..
![[Image: 9-BA8333-F-2764-4338-A263-16-F3104-A26-FE.avif]](https://i.postimg.cc/RVF1Pr80/9-BA8333-F-2764-4338-A263-16-F3104-A26-FE.avif)
RE: Sharpening - AHill - 05-20-2024
(05-18-2024, 09:32 PM)Tapper Wrote: In the past I've taken the "make do" method when it comes to sharpening chisels and plane irons. I have some oil stones and finally bought a Worksharp 3000 a few years ago. It seems to do OK for chisels but plane irons, not so much, at least for me. Recently a project came up that will require some fairly precise hand plane work and my favorites are in need of help.
I've looked into waterstones but for some reason I haven't warmed up to the idea. I have one of those pedestrian honing jigs that seems to work OK but I'm thinking about springing for a Veritas Mk.II honing guide; seems to get high marks in reviews.
Would appreciate methods you use and like.
Doug
Doug,
You'll get a lot of good advice here. There are many methods for sharpening that all work. Some work better than others, and it really does matter what kind of steel you are sharpening, what media and/or devices you are using to sharpen with, and what kind of edge you're expecting from the process.
What kind of steel are you trying to sharpen? For the more modern tool steels, conventional sharpening media takes much longer to sharpen, and when it does get "sharp" it's not going to be as sharp as a more common alloy like O1. The reason is the exotic steels have a larger percentage of very hard carbides in the steel matrix. Softer media will abrade away the softer matrix leaving the carbides exposed like protruding rocks on a seashore. That's not a good profile when sharp is your goal. Those more exotic tool steels require a harder sharpening media like diamond or ceramic waterstones.
I have a Veritas Mk II honing guide and use it for establishing the primary bevel. After that, I freehand it. If you're not comfortable with your ability to maintain a consistent angle, by all means use a honing guide. If you're not holding a consistent angle when honing, you'll get mediocre results because you'll be rounding the bevel. Some will tell you you're not a man if you can't freehand sharpen. Don't believe them. Not everyone has steady hands or eons of experience to develop the muscle memory. And sometimes it's a medical issue that prevents a steady hand.
I use Sigma Power Select waterstones and I keep my edge sharp by stropping on horse butt leather with the green honing compound from Lee Valley. I strop often (2-3x per session or more depending on what I'm doing). I also do power stropping (look up some of Jack's (Timberwolf) old posts on power stropping). Power stropping is VERY quick (like 1-2 seconds) and you'll get very sharp edges. My power strop setup is a stacked paper wheel on a low speed grinder. Never start power stropping unless you are confident you have a sharp edge to begin with.
One last recommendation is to purchase any one or both of the following books on sharpening:
Leonard Lee's The Complete Guide to Sharpening
Ron Hock's The Perfect Edge - The Ultimate Guide to Sharpening for Woodworkers
Leonard Lee's book will tell you how to sharpen most anything, but it doesn't really get much into how to sharpen the more exotic tool steels.
Ron Hock's book includes notes on metallurgy of tool steels.
RE: Sharpening - Timberwolf - 05-20-2024
(05-20-2024, 07:59 AM)AHill Wrote: Doug,..........................
You'll get a lot of good advice here. There are many methods for sharpening that all work. Some work better than others, and it really does matter what kind of steel you are sharpening, what media and/or devices you are using to sharpen with, and what kind of edge you're expecting from the process.
What kind of steel are you trying to sharpen? For the more modern tool steels, conventional sharpening media takes much longer to sharpen, and when it does get "sharp" it's not going to be as sharp as a more common alloy like O1. The reason is the exotic steels have a larger percentage of very hard carbides in the steel matrix. Softer media will abrade away the softer matrix leaving the carbides exposed like protruding rocks on a seashore. That's not a good profile when sharp is your goal. Those more exotic tool steels require a harder sharpening media like diamond or ceramic waterstones.
I have a Veritas Mk II honing guide and use it for establishing the primary bevel. After that, I freehand it. If you're not comfortable with your ability to maintain a consistent angle, by all means use a honing guide. If you're not holding a consistent angle when honing, you'll get mediocre results because you'll be rounding the bevel. Some will tell you you're not a man if you can't freehand sharpen. Don't believe them. Not everyone has steady hands or eons of experience to develop the muscle memory. And sometimes it's a medical issue that prevents a steady hand.
I use Sigma Power Select waterstones and I keep my edge sharp by stropping on horse butt leather with the green honing compound from Lee Valley. I strop often (2-3x per session or more depending on what I'm doing). I also do power stropping (look up some of Jack's (Timberwolf) old posts on power stropping). Power stropping is VERY quick (like 1-2 seconds) and you'll get very sharp edges. My power strop setup is a stacked paper wheel on a low speed grinder. Never start power stropping unless you are confident you have a sharp edge to begin with.
One last recommendation is to purchase any one or both of the following books on sharpening:
Leonard Lee's The Complete Guide to Sharpening
Ron Hock's The Perfect Edge - The Ultimate Guide to Sharpening for Woodworkers
Leonard Lee's book will tell you how to sharpen most anything, but it doesn't really get much into how to sharpen the more exotic tool steels.
Ron Hock's book includes notes on metallurgy of tool steels.
Never start power stropping unless you are confident you have a sharp edge to begin with.
Good post Allan....
I love these sharpening threads..
RE: Sharpening - Tapper - 05-20-2024
Morning Gents,
First, let me thank all of you for your thoughtful and indepth suggestions, comments and recommendations on sharpening. I feel like this is an advanced course on how to get a sharp edge on tools and I've already learned a lot.
Allan, to answer your question as to what kind of steel I'm working with, it's whatever came with these old Stanley, Millers Falls and Record planes that I've collected over the years. I have one aftermarket iron I bought from Lee Valley years ago and have yet to put it into service. It's a Veritas PM-V11, 2", 30*, 0.1 Thick according to the sticker. Since it's a thicker iron, I suppose I'll need to see if I can move the frog back on the plane I choose for it. I'm averse to filing the opening on these old classics - just one of those things I suppose.
What is evident from all the comments is that there are at least several different ways to do this and get a very sharp edge. Christopher Schwartz said to find a method that works for you and then stick with it. Having said that I guess some discussion about goals is important. I would like to get the best possible edge while dedicating a nominal amount of time doing so. Notice I didn't say I wanted to do it using the quickest method, nor do I want to make sharpening a vocation. There is a part of me that is a perfectionist so I have to guard against that. I really enjoy the process and getting a quality result no matter what I'm doing. The end product is the payoff.
Here is a plan I'd like to share with you. I like the Worksharp 3000 from several different perspectives. It's pretty accurate, easy to use and gets you to the final stage of sharpening pretty quickly, while not sacrificing much quality, at least as I see it with my limited experience. I'm sure, like most things the more I use and become familiar with it, the better it gets.
Right now I think for general sharpening on plane irons, as was suggested earlier, I'll go with 25* primary bevel and 30* micro bevel. Pretty simple and I like consistency. Several months ago just to fill out an order from Lee Valley I ordered several sheets of these 3M Aluminum Oxide Film sheets. They have a peel off back and I cut up several grits and stuck them on a piece of granite yesterday I had left over from a project. Lee Valley recommends using a little light oil with them. They are available down to .3 micron, certainly all I would need.
Part of the plan is to pick up a Veritas Mk.II Standard Honing Guide to use with these film sheets to finish off the work done on the Worksharp 3000 and any other specialty hand sharpening tasks that may come up.
Jack, I'll also pick up a couple of those diamond discs you mentioned on Amazon.
This seems to meet my goals of getting a sharp edge with a nominal amount of effort and time and avoid waterstones. I know for some folks waterstones are kind of a "Zen" experience but not for me. As always, your comments and suggestions are welcome and encouraged.
Doug