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+-- Thread: Maybe I should reconsider a segmented head (/showthread.php?tid=7376789)
RE: Maybe I should reconsider a segmented head - jteneyck - 09-15-2024
(09-14-2024, 10:49 PM)BarryO Wrote: It would be interesting to measure the current when it bogs down. FYI my 12" jointer started tripping the overload when taking very light cuts. It turned out the connections at the motor controller were loose/bad. I just happened to have it running with the cover to the electrical box off with the lights out, and so the connections sparking. The connections were heating up, which was heating up the controller, which tripped because that was detected as an overload.
I should be able to get that data. The overload relay is set at 17 amps, IIRC, which is the FLA (Fully Loaded Amps) on the motor plate. I have to pull the cover off to see about the motor pulley anyway.
John
RE: Maybe I should reconsider a segmented head - jteneyck - 09-25-2024
(09-15-2024, 10:05 AM)jteneyck Wrote: I should be able to get that data. The overload relay is set at 17 amps, IIRC, which is the FLA (Fully Loaded Amps) on the motor plate. I have to pull the cover off to see about the motor pulley anyway.
John
I removed the cover so I could look at the motor and pulley. The pulley is large enough that a smaller one could be installed, assuming I could find one to fit the European motor shaft. I'm guessing the current pulley is about 4" in diameter. Going down to 3-1/4" would be 20% less; assuming power is directly proportional to feedrate, that should keep the motor under the FLA at the current cutting depth.
I also checked out how many amps the motor draws. With no load besides turning the drive rollers and cutterhead it runs at a steady 10.4 amps. I turned on the peak hold and it said 101 amps at startup! Could that be possible? I then took a 9" wide oak board and ran it thru. It wasn't flat on the side I was planing so the first couple of readings are probably low. Every turn on the elevation crank is 1/16". At 1/2 turn I saw the load as 10.8 amps. At one turn it was about 12 amps. At 1-1/2 turns it took a full width pass and read 17 - 18 amps. It was struggling at that point but didn't fully bog down nor trip the overload relay. I normally don't turn the crank more than 3/4 of a turn, even less on full width boards. That's about 3/64", pretty pathetic. Knives are freshly sharpened, too. 17 amps at 230 volts with a 90% power factor (just a guess) is over 4 HP.
Assuming I can find a smaller diameter pulley for the motor, and it then draws no more amps with the segmented head as I have now with straight knives on the stock pulley, I'd be running 20% slower than I am now. That's not something I want to do. I'd be trading sharpening time for added machining time and that's a loser of a proposition. So that leaves me with having to find a new motor, and I'm not sure I want to put that much money into it.
Most every 15" planer I see has a 3 HP motor on it. Mine has a 3 KW motor and the data shows it can produce more than 4 hp, but the data suggests more than half of that is just going into turning the cutterhead and drive train. It would be interesting if someone with a 3 HP planer could measure the no load amps for comparison. Anyone up for the task?
John
RE: Maybe I should reconsider a segmented head - Philip1231 - 09-26-2024
FWIW: I have the 16" version of the Minimax J/P with the segmented head. When I first purchased it I was curious to see how much current it would draw under load. I work in cherry mostly so I passed a 16" wide piece of cherry across the jointer and through the planer. As I recall, the current draw was in the 11 amp range. This unit has a 5 HP rated motor. The key difference from what I experienced and what you are experiencing is the depth of cut. When face jointing, I will nearly always keep the machine fixed at .015" (close to 1/64th). When planing, I will typically go no more than .030 per pass. As I am a hobbyist, I am rarely trying to maintain a production schedule. If I were a pro, maybe this approach would not work, due to time constraints. However, just taking a smaller byte seems easier than modifying the machine. Having said that, we can't neglect the "fun" factor in modifying machines, can we?
RE: Maybe I should reconsider a segmented head - jteneyck - 09-26-2024
(09-26-2024, 11:30 AM)Philip1231 Wrote: FWIW: I have the 16" version of the Minimax J/P with the segmented head. When I first purchased it I was curious to see how much current it would draw under load. I work in cherry mostly so I passed a 16" wide piece of cherry across the jointer and through the planer. As I recall, the current draw was in the 11 amp range. This unit has a 5 HP rated motor. The key difference from what I experienced and what you are experiencing is the depth of cut. When face jointing, I will nearly always keep the machine fixed at .015" (close to 1/64th). When planing, I will typically go no more than .030 per pass. As I am a hobbyist, I am rarely trying to maintain a production schedule. If I were a pro, maybe this approach would not work, due to time constraints. However, just taking a smaller byte seems easier than modifying the machine. Having said that, we can't neglect the "fun" factor in modifying machines, can we?
We're not far apart in how we use our machines. I have the jointer set to take off 1/32", twice what you have but still a pretty light cut. In planing mode I take 1/2 turn per pass most of the time, and that's 1/32", the same as your 0.030 for all practical purposes. The difference is I HAVE to run the planer that way, while you choose to.
11 amps on a 5 HP motor seems like it's working less hard to turn over the cutterhead and drive train than my 4 HP one drawing 10.4. I think I'll disconnect the drive belt and see what the motor draws with zero load on it. Maybe that will shed some light on what's going on.
John
RE: Maybe I should reconsider a segmented head - fredhargis - 09-26-2024
(09-25-2024, 03:49 PM)jteneyck Wrote: Most every 15" planer I see has a 3 HP motor on it. Mine has a 3 KW motor and the data shows it can produce more than 4 hp, but the data suggests more than half of that is just going into turning the cutterhead and drive train. It would be interesting if someone with a 3 HP planer could measure the no load amps for comparison. Anyone up for the task?
John
Tomorrow I should be able to check mine, I'll check no-load and try it with something going through it.....should take a lot of time.
RE: Maybe I should reconsider a segmented head - Philip1231 - 09-26-2024
I don't know what your control electronics look like but here is a picture of what mine looks like: I am not sure I'd even attempt to modify that so it could handle a higher current motor. It's not like the old North American made machines with a simple switch.
![[Image: temp-Imageezw-Ivt.avif]](https://i.postimg.cc/SxrhCdnT/temp-Imageezw-Ivt.avif)
" />And here is an image of the motor nameplate:
![[Image: temp-Image93z-IWF.avif]](https://i.postimg.cc/y6trdbTh/temp-Image93z-IWF.avif)
" />
RE: Maybe I should reconsider a segmented head - jteneyck - 09-26-2024
(09-26-2024, 05:38 PM)Philip1231 Wrote: I don't know what your control electronics look like but here is a picture of what mine looks like: I am not sure I'd even attempt to modify that so it could handle a higher current motor. It's not like the old North American made machines with a simple switch.
And here is an image of the motor nameplate:
Mine is much simpler, nothing more than start - stop buttons and an adjustable overload relay, which can handle most any motor from 3 to 5 hp. Should I switch motors, the electronics won't be a problem.
John
RE: Maybe I should reconsider a segmented head - jteneyck - 09-26-2024
(09-26-2024, 04:41 PM)fredhargis Wrote: Tomorrow I should be able to check mine, I'll check no-load and try it with something going through it.....should take a lot of time.
Thanks in advance, Fred. Appreciate it.
John
RE: Maybe I should reconsider a segmented head - fredhargis - 09-27-2024
Here's what I got, this is a delta 22-680 planer...3 HP, 15", with a Byrd head. No load it runs at about 9.5 amps. I tried to read the start up draw but could not, it may have been so fast I couldn't see it but whatever the reason I couldn't make it out. Then I put a 10" wide x 6' long piece of ash through it removing about 1/16" of material (planer on slow feed speed) and while the readings bounced more than I thought they would between 11 and 14.5 amps, my guess is that 13 amps or so would have been the average. I'm not sure any of this is useful but maybe it gives you some sense of what to expect. I really wish I had done this before I switched the cutterheads so I could see the difference.
RE: Maybe I should reconsider a segmented head - jteneyck - 09-27-2024
(09-27-2024, 08:21 AM)fredhargis Wrote: Here's what I got, this is a delta 22-680 planer...3 HP, 15", with a Byrd head. No load it runs at about 9.5 amps. I tried to read the start up draw but could not, it may have been so fast I couldn't see it but whatever the reason I couldn't make it out. Then I put a 10" wide x 6' long piece of ash through it removing about 1/16" of material (planer on slow feed speed) and while the readings bounced more than I thought they would between 11 and 14.5 amps, my guess is that 13 amps or so would have been the average. I'm not sure any of this is useful but maybe it gives you some sense of what to expect. I really wish I had done this before I switched the cutterheads so I could see the difference.
That's really helpful, Fred. Your 3 hp motor draws 9.5 amps at no load, while my 4 hp one was pulling 10.4. So mine works less hard than yours at no load, which suggests the problem is not in the drive train. Taking off 1/16" your motor was drawing about 13 amps. I need to go repeat my experiment to get data at 1/16" on that 9" board to get comparative data.
I'll be back.
Have you ever tried taking off 1/16" on a 14 or 15" wide board? The data you reported suggests the motor does not have enough power. According to a chart I'm looking at, full load amps for a 3 hp motor is 14.5 amps. This is exactly what I'm worried about going to a Byrd head.
John