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Re: my first kitchen... - TucsonLawrence - 04-26-2016
Exellent points- especially on efficiency.
Our plan allows for a nice "triangle" of sink/oven/fridge with only the leg from fridge directly to oven being a little long (about 11 feet) though it doesn't have anything blocking the leg.
We're cookers- and bakers- (and dehydrators, and freezers and canners...)
But absolutely thank you for the reminder and I'll be sure to post the plans once I'm done (that is next)
Excellent advice all- thank you and keep it coming
Lawrence
Re: my first kitchen... - ktkoh - 04-27-2016
I just completed a kitchen for my grandson using melamine boxes and oak doors with out face frames so here are some things I recommend.
Design:
Book I used was by Danny Proulx Build your own Kitchen Cabinets. I used sketchup and a new plugin Cab32 found on the SketchUcation forum on plugins. The plugin made the design of the kitchen easy with a great presentation and at the same time detailed all parts for the cabinets. PM me if you want more information on this. I do recommend the separate toe kick and adjustable legs as this allows you to get more usable parts for a sheet of material. I nailed a board on the wall and use the legs in the front only. I used a flush full thickness back that made the boxes square and stiff and would make adding face frames easier.
Parts:
Break down into oversize parts and cut to size on the table saw. With a sorted parts list you can cut to size all parts of the same dim with one setup. But if not use previous cut part to repeat the setup later. For doors I added 1/8 to the finished width of the stiles and rails and 1/4 to the length of the stiles to allow trimming the doors to final dim after glue up. Was worth the effort.
Shop:
A crosscut sled that will handle the widest part is almost a necessity. I also made corner assembly blocks (3/4" dados at 90 deg) to hold the parts in position during assembly and this was very helpful.
Assembly: I set the parts in the blocks and then aligned the mating edges and tacked with a 18 ga nailer. Then after the box was tacked together I drilled and installed conformant screws to complete the assembly.
Installation: I found that a laser level with both horizontal and vertical line very helpful during installation. The vertical line is exceptionally handy to place screws on the studs at the back of the cabinet. Just make sure to mark stud positions before starting installation.
Good Luck
Keith
Re: my first kitchen... - Cooler - 04-27-2016
fredhargis said:
Build the boxes without a toe kick, then make a separate frame for the boxes to sit on. When you install, you level the frame and then place the boxes on it. Your material goes much further when you do this. +1 to John's comments on painted finish, the times I've did it it was a lot more work.
I did this on my bath vanity. It allowed me to use "feet" instead of a toe kick. It kept the assembled pieces smaller and lighter and it was far easier to level the separate base pieces than an entire cabinet.
I did not pay any attention to material useage (I was only building one piece) but I can see that the cut layouts will make more efficient use of sheet goods.
My only recommendation for the doors is to put down at least one coat of finish on the floating panel before assembly. Otherwise you might see a bit of unfinished wood at times due to the seasonal wood movement.
I know that most guys like something like space balls to keep the panel from moving around, but I just put a single glob of silicone adhesive in the center of the groove of the bottom rail. It still allows for seasonal movement of the rails and stiles but holds the panel in place. I never had any problems with this method. I'm sure someone will point out the error of my ways.
Re: my first kitchen... - rwe2156 - 04-27-2016
I would not be so quick to discard frameless. The only reason I make face frame cabs anymore is for inset doors (which are a major PITA in a kitchen) OR if a traditional look is desired.
IMHO there is no question frameless is the way to go. It is much easier and a better method than face frames for several reasons:
1. Faster assembly time
2. Less material = cost savings.
3. No center stile to get in the way. Very nice for bottoms to use pullouts.
I think it would be worth a few buck to get Danny Proulx's book just to take a look at it.
For the beadboard, I've tried doing that with plywood and it didn't work too well. V grooves and shallow dados will work, but you still get the fuzzies that result from cutting through the x grain plies.
Therefore, I would recommend solid wood flat panels but there are other panel materials that will work better, like (shudder....) particle board.
Another consideration is to outsource your doors. I remember one time I got the doors built for a tad more than my material cost.
I used CutList program for laying out the sheet cuts.
My brother had a kitchen very similar to that installed it is beautiful. If I had to do another kitchen I would do it painted white.
Building a kitchen project can end up a love/hate relationship having good tools is great.
Good luck!
Re: my first kitchen... - Cooler - 04-27-2016
rwe2156 said:
I would not be so quick to discard frameless. The only reason I make face frame cabs anymore is for inset doors (which are a major PITA in a kitchen) OR if a traditional look is desired.
IMHO there is no question frameless is the way to go. It is much easier and a better method than face frames for several reasons:
1. Faster assembly time
2. Less material = cost savings.
3. No center stile to get in the way. Very nice for bottoms to use pullouts.
I think it would be worth a few buck to get Danny Proulx's book just to take a look at it.
For the beadboard, I've tried doing that with plywood and it didn't work too well. V grooves and shallow dados will work, but you still get the fuzzies that result from cutting through the x grain plies.
Therefore, I would recommend solid wood flat panels but there are other panel materials that will work better, like (shudder....) particle board.
Another consideration is to outsource your doors. I remember one time I got the doors built for a tad more than my material cost.
I used CutList program for laying out the sheet cuts.
My brother had a kitchen very similar to that installed it is beautiful. If I had to do another kitchen I would do it painted white.
Building a kitchen project can end up a love/hate relationship having good tools is great.
Good luck!
I like the look of face frame cabinets but I agree that there is little to recommend for it.
The rigidity that they are supposed to offer is largely offered by securing the cabinets to the wall. Cabinets cannot rack side to side if they are secured to the wall.
Also, cabinet have to last 20 years or 25 years. They are not furniture that should last generations.
And If you are like me and recognize that drawers are far more space efficient than shelves, then drawers are easier to install on a frameless cabinet.
That does open the question of how to finish off the exposed edges. Veneer tape is one way, and I like that option for its speed and low cost. Is it as durable as face frame? I doubt it. None of my edgebanded cabinets have had the banding fail, but it is a (small) concern.
But if I were doing a complete kitchen nowadays I would plan on 90% drawers and 10% doors and that would tip me in favor of frameless construction.
Re: my first kitchen... - jteneyck - 04-27-2016
I built my cabinets with frameless construction. I like modern design so it was a no brainer. But I see no loss in rigidity in frameless compared to a face framed cabinet once it is screwed to its neighbors it's not going to rack. And if you use 3/4" thick plywood or Melamine, with a let-in back, those things are very rigid even before you install them. Not an issue AFAIC.
I used white Melamine with maple veneer tape on all the exposed edges to go with the maple doors/drawer fronts, and finished them by hand. One piece on an exposed shelf has come loose in 20 years, and I was able to iron it back down w/o issue. The biggest issue with veneer tape is to make sure there is no lip overhanging the side that can get snagged.
John
Re: my first kitchen... - Sandking - 04-28-2016
McApple said:
LED light strips are da bomb for undercabinet lighting, get the highest number of led's/inch, you can always turn them down.
I second that. I went with colored LEDs which is somewhat cool, but I normally leave them set to a warm white. I also mounted a 10x10 junction box behind the fridge for the transformer so that I had easy access to replace if needed. I ran the power from the switch there and 18 gauge wire from there to each drop. I also added lighting under the toe kicks. At night between the cabinets and toe kicks it looks awesome and gives a nice ambient lighting with my somewhat open floor plan.
Re: my first kitchen... - Snipe Hunter - 04-28-2016
TL
My first woodworking project was a new kitchen in the last house. I was a complete woodworking novice at the time, that's how I came to know Woodnet. Somebody recommended Udo Schmidt's Building Kitchen Cabnets as my guide and I'm glad they did. There is a mistake in the Rail and Style formula, If you read the reviews, you well see comments about it. It was well written and easy to follow but for whatever reason Taunton Press never edited the first edition so it was never fixed. It covers face frame cabinets and the frame-less "euro" style. While Frame-less cabs are much faster to build, I think Face Frames look much nicer and give you much more design flexibility.
I'd suggest going to a cabinet shop or big-box store and find a cabinet style you like and measure the width of the rails and styles and face frame parts and also pay attention to the overlay dimension of the cabinet doors. You are fully committed once you start making parts. That way you know the final product will be aesthetically pleasing and not look like it was designed by an amateur.
Don't skimp on parts. I didn't buy the most expensive parts but I did buy good parts. Full extension Blum slides and quality face-frame hinges with all the adjustments. I also made a handy hinge drilling jig which did my measuring for me and it also positioned my screw holes. I have a pick of it if you want it.
I used a separate toe kick as others recommended. But I used in integral toe kick on the single narrow cabs like between the stove and fridge. My toe kick was 3/4" Birch ply. Much of it was scraps left over from the carcasses. Once I shimmed the toe kick level, I wrapped it with 1/4" birch ply.
I used biscuits at the bottom of each face-frame and the bottom of each carcass for uniform alignment throughout each cabinet. All other joinery was done with a little glue and a cheap Kreg Pocket Hole Jig.
Also, I found that big, deep drawers are much nicer to use and look good as opposed to lots of cabinet doors. All my drawer boxes were made of Birch Ply and I used a Whiteside Drawer Locking router bit for drawer joinery. I wasn't about to learn to cut dovetails at that stage of my experience level, maybe next time. But I honestly don't think I will ever do another kitchen.
I used hard maple. If I were to do it again, I would use an easier/faster wood to mill and sand... like cherry.
I wasn't very imaginative (I didn't even own a table saw) so I pretty much went "by the book" throughout.
I used a Gemini Conversion Varnish. It shot great, looked great but I was disappointed in it's performance around the sink and dishwasher.
My 2 cents
The kitchen:
Re: my first kitchen... - SLN - 04-29-2016
It has been mentioned by a number of people in different areas and that is electrical. There are so many options today.
There are plug strips that can be mounted under the wall cabinets so you do not have outlets in your walls.
There are outlets and usb outlets that can be installed in the backs of drawers to make out of sight charging stations for electronics.
http://www.hghhardware.com/product.jsp?p...ocking%20drawer
You mentioned baking and many may think this a waste of space but a mixer lift can help keep clutter down if you have room for it.
http://www.hghhardware.com/product.jsp?part=61933&m=0&process=search&text=mixer
Think in terms of what you really need and work towards maximum storage and minimal clutter. We are looking into this. We have probably 6-7 large knives and use 2, We have 3-4 stacked bowl sets and use 1. We have dinnerware for 15 but have never had more than 6 over for dinner. A new kitchen is a good time to declutter. Lifestyles change over the years and all the wants gathered can be pared down into the needs.
Again, getting preachy, but the kitchen is the most versatile and complex room in your house, and is worthy of not only the construction planning but also the layout and use planning.
Mainly have fun with it. This is not a chore, but a jigsaw puzzle of possibilities.
Re: my first kitchen... - joe1086 - 04-29-2016
PM sent