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+-- Thread: New ICS Sawstop a little rant (/showthread.php?tid=7326158)
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Earl Kelly - 12-14-2016
(12-14-2016, 12:57 AM)Huxleywood Wrote: No need for this to devolve into a policy debate but you keep ascribing attributes to the one or two countries that are more myth than fact currently. My grand theory is simply the castings could have come from either area of the country but that has zero to do with the quality of the castings, gray CI is low end foundry product not some uber-alloy steel.
How would pictures show his problem is unique, that is purely anecdotal. The suggestion of the Brinell test was just to point out without such testing the state of your table versus his means absolutely nothing and was meant as hyperbole to point out the comparison of to tables via picture is worthless. IF his casting is unusually soft it is extremely unlikely that it is unique at a minimum it would be a lot problem and thus chances of one casting being soft is extraordinarily slim.
This is why I posted this to probe and see if others have issues as well. Meaning a bad batch of castings may have gotten past quality control. That would be one explanation.
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - jlanciani - 12-14-2016
(12-14-2016, 10:09 AM)Earl Kelly Wrote: Wow, I guess like all Sawstop threads, there's so many different opinions. I do understand the cast iron may not be to the same specs as US cast but still it is cast iron. I would hope after 30-40 yrs of producing power tools for the US market the standards would have improved.
The scratches, at least the bad ones can be felt with your fingernail. Lots of little superficial that don't bother me.
I have not contacted Sawstop yet. I've only had the saw setup and running a few days. I did complain to the Dealer, same one I bought the PM66 from in '98. According to him I'm the first to complain. I will be bringing this up with Sawstop. Don't know what they can do, unless there are more complaints. First I'm cleaning the top down. I have Boeshield and a coat of paste wax on it. I've heard good things about Renaissance Wax and going to put a coat of that on it and see how that works.
Thanks for the positive/constructive comments and those not so much. I did love my PM66 and would have kept it if I had space, but I didn't so did next best thing and sold it to a Friend.
US made Powermatic machines were made from Meehanite cast iron, start your research here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meehanite It is unlikely that the Taiwanese or Chinese foundry that is doing the casting for SawStop is using anything close to the quality of cast iron that the Powermatic of old used. Thinking that all cast iron is the same is no different than thinking that all cars are the same.
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - castguy2003 - 12-14-2016
Aging cast iron reduces the internal stresses making it more stable. The "softness" of the iron is largely based on carbon content although alloying also affects it.
Alloying costs money so I would doubt if castings from China, etc contain much if any alloy materials.
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Huxleywood - 12-14-2016
(12-14-2016, 11:22 AM)jlanciani Wrote: US made Powermatic machines were made from Meehanite cast iron, start your research here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meehanite It is unlikely that the Taiwanese or Chinese foundry that is doing the casting for SawStop is using anything close to the quality of cast iron that the Powermatic of old used. Thinking that all cast iron is the same is no different than thinking that all cars are the same.
(12-14-2016, 12:52 PM)castguy2003 Wrote: Aging cast iron reduces the internal stresses making it more stable. The "softness" of the iron is largely based on carbon content although alloying also affects it.
Alloying costs money so I would doubt if castings from China, etc contain much if any alloy materials.
Meehanite processed CI is indeed high quality but hasn't been the greatest thing since sliced bread in the CI industry for over 70 years, there are other processes that produce higher quality CI and Meehanite foundries employ those as well but they haven't had a choke hold on quality CI for many decades. While Powermatic did build their machines with CI from Meehanite foundries many of the companies that produced much higher quality woodworking machines did not.
Aging CI is almost 100% about increasing the strength and hardness of CI and the reduction of internal stress is mostly myth but is routinely perpetuated on internet forums. The advantage to manganese and sulpher alloying is to reduce the aging time and or temperature which for many casting operations actually saves money over the alloying costs.
The fact is there are high quality CI castings coming out of both China and Taiwan and unless someone decides to test SS CI we will never know exactly what CI they are using.
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Richard D. - 12-14-2016
We know from woodworking that a gloss surface shows scratches more easily than a matt. The machine marks you could still see on your PM are proof that they didn't grind the surface to the extent of the SS. By taking the surface to a finer finish they give you the impression that the surface is flawed because of the scratches you see. The surface is probably still smoother than your PM but you are focusing on visible scratches, not the surface as a whole.
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - BloomingtonMike - 12-14-2016
Shocked you have scratches you can feel from hardwood on a SS ICS CI table. I own a 2006 SS 5hp so that is what I know. Not sure what you got but a call to SS would be in order if its legit. Post up some pics of your scratches. How did you clean the saw when you got it?
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Johnbro - 12-14-2016
I noticed my new SS PCS has some tiny scratches from use; but my American-made PM66 also had scratches from use. Doesn't impact the cut quality so I don't really care--it's not like it's a decoration in my living room.
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Tapper - 12-15-2016
(12-13-2016, 04:51 PM)Philip1231 Wrote: I went from a UNISAW to the 3 HP PCS (I think that's the model). The cast iron top on the SS has a very high polish, way beyond what
the UNISAW had. Could it be that due to the high polish, the scratches are simply more noticable on the SS (i.e. the scratches were there
on the old machine, but due to the coarser finish, they didn't jump out at you)?
I did the very same thing when the PCS came out. Been so long ago I can't compare the two. I do know that every time I fire up the PCS I'm happy all over again that I bought it! Scratches are just part of the deal IMHO.
Doug
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Bill Lyman - 12-15-2016
(12-14-2016, 06:55 AM)fredhargis Wrote: Boy, did this one ever go off the rails (well, maybe no more than any other SS thread)! To the OP, while my knee jerk reaction is you are being extremely picky, I can say mine (SS ICS after about 18 months of use didn't have any scratches to speak of on the table. It would be interesting to send a pic to SS and ask....or even show us, I am curious about it.+1. I have had my ICS for 9 years and although the top is no longer pristine, it takes minimal buffing and polishing to stay clean and it does not have scratches of any note. If I were you I would take Fred's advice and call them and send their customer service a photo. SS customer service is very good.
RE: New ICS Sawstop a little rant - Handplanesandmore - 12-15-2016
hahahahha. After more than a thousand words, still no pictures.
Simon