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+-- Thread: Outfeed table design help, T-track vs Dog Holes (/showthread.php?tid=7336971)
RE: Outfeed table design help, T-track vs Dog Holes - photobug - 02-08-2018
(02-08-2018, 06:05 AM)KyleD Wrote: If you want perfect holes forget using a drill and drill bit. You could buy a 20mm plunge router bit or...I am planning on doing a test using a 1/4" spiral, guide bushing and 15/16" hole to see what I get. I think short of buying a PARF System it might be hard to get 20mm holes on a precise grid pattern. Even getting the hole size close enough is not good enough. My jig will have around 20 holes and the table around 150+. Sanding these holes to fit is not an option I want to explore. I was planning on making the dog holes first then maybe come back and add t-tracks later. I am now considering laying out the dog hole grid but starting with the T-track and come back for the dog holes later if needed.
Use a plunge router along with a 1/2 spiral bit with guide bushing and template that has the right sized holes if you want to get perfect.
This especially applies on the manmade materials like MDF, Ply, or Particle board.
I should have re-read your post. It sounds like router is in your mind already.
(02-08-2018, 10:57 AM)ez-duzit Wrote: The huge step-down shown makes it virtually useless as an outfeed table.
Agreed in theory I would want a outfeed surface that was level with the table saw, but I have had good luck with my current outfeed table as is with a drop. 95% of my cuts are sub 4 feet or using my cross cut sled, so no need for a true outfeed table. I feel my production method is safer with the outfeed table at a lower level. With the cut boards dropping out of the way onto the "outfeed catcher", I no longer have a need to reach over a running saw blade to move the boards out of the way for the next cut. On the rare times I have needed a longer outfeed support I have added a 2x4 or 3/4 ply to lift up the outfeed surface to catch the tablesaw outfeed as needed. For this new table I plan on building a system of risers to be installed as needed for longer outfeed needs.
One of the considerations I have is my tablesaw's current height is 36.5" high, based on a 3" lift from a mobile base. My outfeed table needs to be designed 3" short to fit my tablesaw if I choose to remove the mobile base in the future. If someday my work flow involves more longer pieces I can raise the outfeed top to match the table saw as needed.
RE: Outfeed table design help, T-track vs Dog Holes - photobug - 02-08-2018
(02-07-2018, 01:25 PM)KyleD Wrote: You can have both if you want the most versatility and can stomach the price of T-track.
After drinking a pitcher of the green cool aid (Festool) I am stuck with the 20mm holes.
I thought green cool-aid helps settle an upset stomach caused by purchase of other high priced woodworking tools.
RE: Outfeed table design help, T-track vs Dog Holes - mound - 02-08-2018
I suspect most of those holes and most of that t-track won't ever see any use, but I don't know the kinds of work you do! These are cool designs for sure, I just wonder if it's overkill.
RE: Outfeed table design help, T-track vs Dog Holes - KyleD - 02-09-2018
There are ways to make a hole jig.
https://youtu.be/TuPC7aVYpmk
This is an example. there are many more on youtube.
RE: Outfeed table design help, T-track vs Dog Holes - handi - 02-14-2018
I will suggest the dog holes with dovetail grooves plowed in a grid in between. This will allow you to use standard “dog” type hardware and MicroJig’s Dovetail Clamps without the cost of t-track.
RE: Outfeed table design help, T-track vs Dog Holes - photobug - 02-16-2018
(02-09-2018, 06:08 AM)KyleD Wrote: There are ways to make a hole jig.The one problem with this and the other options I look at is it requires a Festool router to work with the jig as a starting point. At that point it would have been cheaper to have bought the top predrilled. One option to the Festool is a PC 690 router with a plunge base. I have the PC690 but not the plunge base. I am waiting for one to come available on Ebay to add to my router collection. But by the time I buy a this jig, the plunge router and a 20 mm router bit, I am most of the way to a Parf jig.
https://youtu.be/TuPC7aVYpmk
This is an example. there are many more on youtube.
The designer of the Paulk bench has a demo on his homemade jig. He shows how it works once again with a Festool router. I am trying to do this without buying a new tool or expensive jig. I have finally gotten my Milescraft baseplate to center on my DW621. I will test it today with a 15/16" hole and 1/4" spiral bit to see if that gets me a 20mm hole. My concern it does not, so I will have to make a jig to then make my jig to then make the holes, 160 of them. Short term will be just the t-track.
(02-14-2018, 07:25 PM)handi Wrote: I will suggest the dog holes with dovetail grooves plowed in a grid in between. This will allow you to use standard “dog” type hardware and MicroJig’s Dovetail Clamps without the cost of t-track.
I think these Dovetail clamps are still a half baked product until they come up with ways to use it that does not require the use of a $20 clamp or two of these to accomplish clamping. For less than the cost of 4 dovetail clamps, I have all the T-track I need for this table. When Micro-jig finished developing this product's accessories, I would consider using it in this and other jigs.
RE: Outfeed table design help, T-track vs Dog Holes - measure once cut remeasure - 02-16-2018
I use my workbench as a primary assembly area, provided it isn't buried in junk. The Masonite board is far from smooth after years of use.
The out feed table with a smooth slippery laminate surface. It also gets used for glue ups and finishing where spills wipe off easily.
RE: Outfeed table design help, T-track vs Dog Holes - handi - 02-18-2018
(02-16-2018, 02:39 PM)photobug Wrote: The one problem with this and the other options I look at is it requires a Festool router to work with the jig as a starting point. At that point it would have been cheaper to have bought the top predrilled. One option to the Festool is a PC 690 router with a plunge base. I have the PC690 but not the plunge base. I am waiting for one to come available on Ebay to add to my router collection. But by the time I buy a this jig, the plunge router and a 20 mm router bit, I am most of the way to a Parf jig.Your drawing shows something around 20 feet of t-track if I am reading it reasonably right and that only covers a small part of your table. At $7 per foot for the track, that’s $140.00 If you have a cheaper price, do share with us, because I honestly would like to know about it. You say you alreadY own a bunch T-track hardware, so you have already invested a bunch in the t-track system, so that changes your dynamic.
The designer of the Paulk bench has a demo on his homemade jig. He shows how it works once again with a Festool router. I am trying to do this without buying a new tool or expensive jig. I have finally gotten my Milescraft baseplate to center on my DW621. I will test it today with a 15/16" hole and 1/4" spiral bit to see if that gets me a 20mm hole. My concern it does not, so I will have to make a jig to then make my jig to then make the holes, 160 of them. Short term will be just the t-track.
I think these Dovetail clamps are still a half baked product until they come up with ways to use it that does not require the use of a $20 clamp or two of these to accomplish clamping. For less than the cost of 4 dovetail clamps, I have all the T-track I need for this table. When Micro-jig finished developing this product's accessories, I would consider using it in this and other jigs.
That being said, Rockler sells a T-track router bit that can easily cut the tracks into your plywood top for the cost of a $30 bit and anywhere else you might want. The groove it cuts works with both 1/4 and 5/16” t-bolts and all their t-track hardware. It would allow for intersections as well at no additional charge. I have a video showing how I use that bit to make clamping tracks for the spoil board on my CNC machine.
Just for the record, Microjig is introducing a dovetail hardware kit that will have both dovetail headed bolts and dovetail nuts to work within the same grooves. Comes with matching knobs and washers. Will be out within a month or so. And the dovetail Clamps will easily slip into the dog holes on your table as well.
They sold 20 thousand PAIRS of these clamps last year. I was at the Hartville Hardware Show this weekend, and we sold another 50 plus pairs there in two days. I wish I owned such a “half baked product”.
RE: Outfeed table design help, T-track vs Dog Holes - Dan Moening - 02-18-2018
Quote:At $7 per foot for the track, that’s $140.00 If you have a cheaper price, do share with us, because I honestly would like to know about it.
T-Track is available from any number of resellers on Amazon ... here's one I've purchased from recently (no connection with):
https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Track-Accepts-Countersunk-112122/dp/B073NSCDTQ
Unless, of course, you're looking for name brand, anodized stuff.
RE: Outfeed table design help, T-track vs Dog Holes - photobug - 02-18-2018
(02-18-2018, 08:21 AM)handi Wrote: Just for the record, Microjig is introducing a dovetail hardware kit that will have both dovetail headed bolts and dovetail nuts to work within the same grooves. Comes with matching knobs and washers. Will be out within a month or so. And the dovetail Clamps will easily slip into the dog holes on your table as well.
They sold 20 thousand PAIRS of these clamps last year. I was at the Hartville Hardware Show this weekend, and we sold another 50 plus pairs there in two days. I wish I owned such a “half baked product”. Until then it is an incomplete product line. I am one of the 20 thousand owners of these clamps but have yet to make the high fence I plan on using it for as I have not needed it yet.I am one of the 20 thousand owners of these clamps but have yet to make the high fence I plan on using it for as I have not needed it yet.
I am one of the 20 thousand owners of these clamps but have yet to make the high fence I plan on using it for as I have not needed it yet.
By half baked I mean someday they will introduce a dovetail hardware kit and the product will be fully baked. At that point the full extent of the line, it's capabilities and the cost. Micro-jig makes nice stuff, I own a number of their products. I think it is fairly priced even though it is usually premium priced. I am betting when it is all set and done I will be ahead in expenses. It is really not about expenses as convenience. T-track is easier to install and the parts to make a jig cheaper. I envision wanting to leave jigs in place on the t-track and wouldn't be doing that if it needs a $20 clamp.
When Micro-jig releases all the accessories, I will likely invest in some of it, but my assembly table will already be T-track based.
(02-18-2018, 09:48 AM)Dan Moening Wrote: T-Track is available from any number of resellers on Amazon ... here's one I've purchased from recently (no connection with):
https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Track-Accepts-Countersunk-112122/dp/B073NSCDTQ
Unless, of course, you're looking for name brand, anodized stuff.
No affiliation, you sure you aren't Jeff Bezos trying to prop up his sagging revenue?
I purchased 18 feet of blue anodized T-track from Amazon for $85, average price under $5/foot. I have a few pieces of silver track already but wanted to have the blue anodized as it looks cool.