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+-- Thread: Big Ripsaw and Crosscut saw project (/showthread.php?tid=5863545)
Re: Big Ripsaw and Crosscut saw project - Blacky's Boy - 03-28-2012
Isaac S said:
Maybe one of these?
I hate you.
Vise ENVY!! Vise envy!! Now I want one even more than before.
Re: Big Ripsaw and Crosscut saw project - jossimbyr - 03-28-2012
MarvW said:
Hi Joss,
Referencing to the tooth edge does seem to be a more logical way to determine the hang. However, the hang has everything to do with how the forces are applied to the tooth edge as the saw is pushed forward. So in that sense, it's not only the angle of the hand grip, it's also the height of the grip in relation to the tooth edge. This relationship changes as the saw is filed smaller in height. The relationship between the angle of the grip also changes as that line of force is directed farther and farther back from the toe end. So there are two things in play here. Having said that, one or the other or both has to significantly change in order for the sawyer to feel a significant difference in the way the saw performs. Definitely a noticeable difference between when the saw was new and when it is finally filed to a point at the toe end.
As the saw gets filed smaller and smaller, it is, in effect, becoming shorter when considering where the perpendicular line down the center of the blade intersects with the tooth line. The force required to push the saw is in line with that perpendicular line off the center of the hand grip. In order to change that line of force, the handle would have to be raised or lowered and or rotated. So, theoretically, as the saw is filed smaller and smaller, if the handle was made to be adjustable, the saw could be made to perform as it did when it was new or pretty close to it. The handle being adjustable could be be adjusted so that line of force is again to the bottom of the toe end. The degree of importance as to where exactly that line of force is, within a practical range, is not something easy to determine. Surely not something I'm willing to spent any of my remaining hours trying to prove one way or the other. It is fun to contemplate though....
As I was re-reading this earlier, a lightbulb went off. I completely understand what you are saying. First, I had to clear my mind of any preconceived notion of 'hang'. After that, it was pretty easy to comprehend. The only problem is this: 'Hang' is not a permanent number (which was what my major confusion was about). That can result in handlemakers and sawmakers incorrectly creating a product based on faulty numbers. That's life, I guess.
Re: Big Ripsaw and Crosscut saw project - MarvW - 03-28-2012
Hi Joss,
From a saw makers standpoint, they need to document what their final design is so it can be duplicated in a production mode. They design the handle and how it is located on the saw plate as to how they feel it gives the best performance results. If what Dom has done in his CAD drawings, will prove to be satisfactory to him, he now has a document that he can use for future saws, saws that will perform the same. When we pick up saws made from various saw makers, grasp the hand grip, extend the saw to arms length, the actual hang can be compared. One saw might hang lower at the toe end than another. Both saws will perhaps perform quite well, even though one might feel more comfortable to a user than the other. The so called "proper" or "correct" way to create a certain hang for saws in general, falls within quite a range of acceptance and feasibility. With any tool, there will be design limits for every aspect of the tool. Think of any aspect of a saw, then picture in your mind where you think the outer limits are. Beyond those limits will be an area that makes the saw non-functional. Within those limits will be a "sweet" spot. And so it is with locating a handle on a saw plate. When approaching the limits the saw will still be functional, but many users will notice it and may search for a saw that feels and functions more to their liking. As I use the various saws that I have in my saw till, I can definitely feel distinct differences from one saw to another. They all cut wood, but with a little different feel.
Re: Big Ripsaw and Crosscut saw project - Jim Shaver - 03-28-2012
Amazing work my friend!
Re: Big Ripsaw and Crosscut saw project - Blacky's Boy - 03-28-2012
Thanks Jim!
Once they are done you gotta' get your butt down here and try them.
Re: Big Ripsaw and Crosscut saw project - jossimbyr - 03-28-2012
Marv,
Very well stated, yet again, and I appreciate the elaboration. I have one of those 'outer limits' saws that you mentioned - an eBay purchase - that darn near broke my wrist when I tried to use it. When I mentioned sawmakers, what I had in mind was an individual just looking to make a saw or two for personal use. Somebody like that would probably do a seat-of-the pants build with no real pre-production, just some general notes cribbed from their favorite saws.
Re: Big Ripsaw and Crosscut saw project: The saw plates - Blacky's Boy - 04-02-2012
After filling a bunch of customer orders for saw plates I decided it was high time I got back on track with my own saw making project.
The saw plates for these two saws were deblued in a citric acid bath some time last week. So they were ready to go. I am using my manual Foley retoother since I have a streak of masochism.
Nothing like cranking a 40 lb fly wheel while the machine is punching teeth is hardened spring steel! 
yeah,...I got a work out.
Here's the cross cut saw plate. It's toothed to 10ppi with 15 deg of negative rake.
Here's the rip saw plate. It's toothed to 6ppi with 8 deg of negative rake.
I'm not going to file the nibs in the saw plates just yet. I want that to be a "finishing" task.
However, I AM ready to work on the handles. I have the templates all printed out and decided that I would use some really classy material for these handles. So out came a piece of Jatoba (Brazilian Cherry) and some Rosewood.
I was just about to glue the templates to the wood when I decided to see what the saws would look like. It's one thing to design something on a computer screen. But it's another one all together to see it in person. I just laid the handle template on the wood and took a photo.
Here's the Rip saw all mocked up. It looks pretty cool and I'm liking the proportions.
However, the cross cut saw looked "off". The handle just seemed too small.
When I took the template and laid it on top of an old Disston Warranted Superior (whose handle I just LOVE), it also looked too small.
This template is the one I got from another site and not one I drew up. So I'm thinking that the whole thing may be out of scale. I took photos of that Disston Warranted Superior handle and will drawing that up some time tonight. I will most likely use it.
Re: Big Ripsaw and Crosscut saw project: The saw plates - Erik M - 04-02-2012
Dominic,
Aren't those handles with the three bolt patterns more commonly found on panel saws, hence the smaller size? The older Disston handles that I have use four bolts for the full size saws.
Re: Big Ripsaw and Crosscut saw project - Window Guy - 04-02-2012
Dom,
Very very nice job on these proto types and can't wait to see the finished projects. It looks like we have a serious Saw Maker in the house
Keep up the great work and will be looking forward to more of your posts. By the way where did you find that shear at ?
Steve
Re: Big Ripsaw and Crosscut saw project - Window Guy - 04-02-2012
Isaac,
What a nice looking saw vise and beautiful restoration.
Thanks for sharing !
Steve