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+-- Thread: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news (/showthread.php?tid=7327525)
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Johnbro - 02-02-2017
Having watched this debate for YEARS and finally having traded my PM66 (lovely piece of iron) for a SS PCS, I find it fascinating that people get so mad at Steve Gass for doing what every other inventor on the planet tries to do they would rather risk chopping off a finger or two than buy this saw. Would love to hear from someone like that AFTER they go to the ER with a severed thumb...
They call them "accidents" for a reason. Lumping all TS injuries under the "where's the personal responsibility anymore?" bucket is kind of dumb.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - JGrout - 02-02-2017
ah yes we all must be hacks for understanding that roundy thingy with teeth cuts more than wood......... once again we have literally thousands of operators that are injury free
We all must just be darn lucky and accordingly really really stoopid
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Steve N - 02-02-2017
(02-02-2017, 05:34 PM)JGrout Wrote: ah yes we all must be hacks for understanding that roundy thingy with teeth cuts more than wood......... once again we have literally thousands of operators that are injury free
We all must just be darn lucky and accordingly really really stoopid
I can echo Joe's sentiment. I worked in the ER as an RN for over 20 years, and have seen every variety of shop injury, including bad ones like arms ripped out of the shoulder on a lathe that caught the operators long sleeved sweatshirt. He was lucky because he refused to leave his feet or else he would likely have died, if he was flung around the lathe. TS injuries are most frequent, but out of over 100 I never had a guy who was working with a plan, he was just sawing *&^$ up, and Doh lookit me. I will argue one point Joe made, even though I'm sure it's in jest. It is the injured operators doing stoopid stuff. Folks with 40 to 50 + years of operating these tools, and all ten fingers are the smart ones.
Use your guards, plan your work, and work your plan. Quit when you get tired. But most of all on every cut have an expectation of what is likely to happen. I'm convinced more than anything that is the part the fingerless are missing. But if you feel the need for the "safety device" go for it. My belief is it artificially makes you feel safe, and therefore is totally unsafe. Hasn't happened yet that I am aware of, but no product is 100% without flaw, not even Rolls, and Bentley. Some day Gass is gonna ship a bunch of dud blade wreckers, and people will get hurt, not an if, just a when.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - AHill - 02-03-2017
(02-02-2017, 05:34 PM)JGrout Wrote: ah yes we all must be hacks for understanding that roundy thingy with teeth cuts more than wood......... once again we have literally thousands of operators that are injury free
We all must just be darn lucky and accordingly really really stoopid
You've nailed it. Problem is, SO MANY operators DON'T use safety devices that come with their saw. Some of them have bragged about it on this forum. For those folks, an accident is waiting to happen. I hardly ever see the blade guards installed on TV shows where there are professional carpenters, woodworkers, etc. I've seen freehand ripping with no fences or pushsticks. Even with the disclaimers at the beginning of these shows, there's no telling how many folks think this kind of stuff is OK as long as they pay attention to where their hands are. It is for those people that SawStop provides a service.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Tapper - 02-03-2017
(02-02-2017, 10:05 AM)JGrout Wrote: And I have 10 fingers still in spite of myself; guess personal responsibility means nothing anymore
HTH HAND h8r
Just an observation: This debate, IMO, really isn't about personal responsibility. It has nothing to do with an operator's intent. The most safety minded operators ALWAYS intend to not have an accident. What's that old saying, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
The crux of this matter to me is the veracity of the invention. So far it is unique. It is a safety device that will absolutely, positively prevent catastrophic injury when operating a tablesaw. OK, if the cartridge fails, you're on your own. Just like if your reserve chute fails at 10K feet, you're on your own - nothing more, nothing less. AFAIK there has yet to be a recorded incidence of cartridge failure where someone was harmed (YMMV). These horrible accidents on tablesaws happen in a split second. One moment of inattention, i.e. having thoughts about a problem with a family member, something at your work, another project you're involved in - anything can cause your thoughts to drift from focusing on safety during a cut. It doesn't take much and you can be in a danger zone and experience an accident in a heartbeat.
Having said that I applaud you Joe, and others here who've been careful and responsible operators thus far in your lives while operating your tablesaws and not experiencing a serious accident. I hope you NEVER experience a serious accident that could possibly be life-changing. I have a friend who was not so fortunate. Two fingers lost in that moment of inattention. As I get older each year I'm more aware of my limitations when it comes to the power of concentration. I want to enjoy this hobby for as long as possible. Eliminating the threat of serious injury on my tablesaw has made my sessions in the shop more enjoyable every time I turn on my Sawstop PCS.
Fortunately, I seem to think about safety even more now. I was using a couple of routers recently, a tool that many don't think of as very threatening. To me that spinning bit is something that can do quite a bit of damage if you're not paying close attention so I tend to be very cautious.
Steve Gass will be vilified by many here as long as he draws breath; not me. I'm thankful he invented this wonderful safety device and chose to put it on a very quality line of tablesaws. Again, for those of you that choose not to avail yourselves of its safety features, I sincerely wish you continued good safety always in operating your saws.
As a footnote, I will never forget the father who came on this forum to tell the story of teaching his young son to operate his tablesaw. He thought he had covered all the bases before he turned on the saw. In a split second his son's hand was in the blade causing serious injury. I'm sure it's an event that father will never forget.
Doug
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Admiral - 02-03-2017
(02-03-2017, 12:04 AM)AHill Wrote: I've seen freehand ripping with no fences or pushsticks. Even with the disclaimers at the beginning of these shows, there's no telling how many folks think this kind of stuff is OK as long as they pay attention to where their hands are. It is for those people that SawStop provides a service.
I would respectfully disagree; we've all been tired, in a hurry or inattentive, at some point or another, and that's when accidents happen. I don't own a SS. I use all the proper accessories when I use my Unisaw; push sticks, featherboards, holddowns, etc., I understand how my saw works and what its limitations are, and I pay attention to the parallel adjustment of the fence, keep my blades sharp, watch where I'm standing, and if I think a cut is unsafe, I find a workaround (lately, been doing much more hand sawing and bandsawing anyway). But am I infallible? No. All I can be is vigilant and try and be safe, and so far I have my original 10 fingers. So I can't say its a matter of individual responsibility like some posit, nor that SS only provides a service to unsafe operators (although they would surely benefit most from the technology!). For those who want insurance, its available. Perhaps if I were buying my first TS, I'd choose SS just for that reason.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - AHill - 02-03-2017
(02-03-2017, 04:20 PM)Admiral Wrote: I would respectfully disagree; we've all been tired, in a hurry or inattentive, at some point or another, and that's when accidents happen. I don't own a SS. I use all the proper accessories when I use my Unisaw; push sticks, featherboards, holddowns, etc., I understand how my saw works and what its limitations are, and I pay attention to the parallel adjustment of the fence, keep my blades sharp, watch where I'm standing, and if I think a cut is unsafe, I find a workaround (lately, been doing much more hand sawing and bandsawing anyway). But am I infallible? No. All I can be is vigilant and try and be safe, and so far I have my original 10 fingers. So I can't say its a matter of individual responsibility like some posit, nor that SS only provides a service to unsafe operators (although they would surely benefit most from the technology!). For those who want insurance, its available. Perhaps if I were buying my first TS, I'd choose SS just for that reason.
I totally agree with you. I have always maintained that even the most experienced woodworkers sometimes make mistakes and get injured. My point was that, IMO, Gass targeted SS to the larger market of those who think they are more prone to an injury or employers who might believe there's less liability using a SS. I've met plenty of experienced woodworkers, and many were pros, who have missing or severed digits due to workshop accidents. Some were tired. Some were just too arrogant or overconfident in their abilities. Some were distracted. My shop teacher in HS cut off the tip of his finger on a table saw, working alone and tired on a weekend in the HS woodshop. Part of my job is predicting how often injuries or mishaps will occur. There's never a zero probability of an accident. You can design to reduce that probability, but you can't totally eliminate it. If I had $1000 extra in my pocket back in 2010, I'd have a SS instead of a PM2000.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - JGrout - 02-03-2017
Well I agree; if SS is still around in 50 yrs or the technology is finally released for public consumption in a competitive market where old style saws are an aberration rather than the standard you have a point.
Until then his style of driving the market will meet stiff resistance based on the way his so far failed at attempts to legislate via regulation instead of making the technology available to competitors for a reasonable royalty. That would have likely lead to people and machine producers clamoring toward the product.
That did not and from the way he is protecting his claims is not going to happen.
Frankly it is never one's intent to be injured and some will still be injured. Not nearly as many as the SS people suggest and that is one thing I personally cannot control.
That said there is still going to be resistance from those of us who have been able to work injury free with knowledge of the workings of a machine and the ability to execute without harm to oneself.
Right now you either buy in or you do not.
I do not, as apparently so do 80-90% of the owners of non SS saws...
someday it will be different until then well.......
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Steve N - 02-03-2017
I will pay money for a great guard, I would not pay money for a finger Nanny even if they were very inexpensive, and I agree with Joe he will never allow them to be, so his BS about doing it so others won't be injured is just BS. If he GARA about safety, he would retrofit any saw, or figure out how to, and offer them at a very reasonable rate. How many years now, and all I've seen is him suing.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Admiral - 02-03-2017
Gee, can someone tell me what the "reasonable rate" for a patent license is? I've not seen anything that says SS demanded excessive royalties for licensing its patents. Talk about fake news.
Patent licensing discussions are always confidential. Please, someone show me what was offered! And why it was rejected.
Patents are the engine of innovation, nothing more American than that, the concept goes back to the drafting of the constitution.