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+-- Thread: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news (/showthread.php?tid=7327525)
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Johnbro - 02-04-2017
(02-03-2017, 06:07 PM)Admiral Wrote: Gee, can someone tell me what the "reasonable rate" for a patent license is? I've not seen anything that says SS demanded excessive royalties for licensing its patents. Talk about fake news.
Patent licensing discussions are always confidential. Please, someone show me what was offered! And why it was rejected.
Patents are the engine of innovation, nothing more American than that, the concept goes back to the drafting of the constitution.
Extremely good point. So much jumping to conclusions here. What's more likely, based on my imperfect but fairly experienced opinion, is Gass approaches Delta, PM, Jet, etc and offers his invention. They consider from the standpoint of:
1. Will it increase market share (not if everyone buys it, it simply becomes a standard feature that cannot differentiate any specific brand)
2. Will it increase profits (no, the licensing and mfg costs have to be passed on to the consumer)
3. Will it differentiate the product? Again, not if it's not an exclusive deal, and that would require a lot more money to block others from getting the technology
4. Will it increase total market size? probably not: people who want table saws already have a lot to choose from, why would this rather esoteric feature, which of itself doesn't increase the functionality of the saw, move people to become purchasers?
5. Is anyone else offering it (we don't want to be at a disadvantage)? No, not one yet, we can be first.
6. Are consumers clamoring for safety features on table saws? No the average buyer is an old white man who thinks he knows everything.
7. Are commercial customers a growing market that would make this viable? No. In fact, the market for custom furniture and cabinetry is not growing, it's shrinking due to factories, cheap imports, and other factors.
In such a situation, I can easily see most of the manufacturers taking a "wait and see" attitude.
Now if I were Steve Gass, and I had a great invention that I had worked super hard to develop, and had gone through the incredibly difficult process of designing, prototyping, refining, sorting out issues, lining up manufacturers, filing and prosecuting my patent through to the end--if I had done all that, I'd want the American capitalist dream of maximizing profits. Given the evidence of the political conservatism of _most_ of the people on this forum, I'm frankly astonished at the idea he should take a financial hit for the good of mankind. I believe irony is spelled with only one "n"...
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - DanielBerlin - 02-04-2017
The thing that always gets me about these threads are the people who think the power tool institute (that would be the lobby for pretty much everyone else *but* sawstop) and friends don't lobby the CPSC or anyone else.
It's literally why they exist, and existed well before Steve came along.
And yes, there are literally hundreds of examples of them trying to get anyone they could to regulate this or that, to give them advantage, before Steve.
It's silly to think they didn't. It's public record, for gods sake.
In fact, they pretty much do everything they can to stop any new entrants in the market.
Because that's what they do.
Does anyone here really think, for a second, that the other side of this didn't lobby continuously to try to have sawstop declared unsafe and dangerous for any number of reasons?
In fact, they just about brag that whipping the woodworkers into a frenzy about sawstop was pretty much their best campaign yet, and everyone has been all too willing to help them. All they gotta do is tickle that little anti-regulation/anti-government streak a lot of woodworkers have, and people are happy to go nuts.
As for the patent lawsuits, I don't remember anyone complaining when Black and Decker sued Bosch over patents on worksite radios, or milwaukee suing everyone over having lithium ion batteries, or what have you.
I actually spent a significant amount of time working on patent reform in the past, and it's lonely out there. Pretty much the only people who wanted reform, and sanity, was Google. Even they gave up, because every company fights against it.
As for the guy being a patent attorney, it's just trotted out as an ad hominem attack. If he was a garbage man, you guys would just attack him for that.
Did anyone ever stop to think that maybe only reason he actually could successfully start a business against the companies in PTI, etc, is precisely because he *was* a patent attorney?
That anyone else (and lots have tried), have failed because they can't navigate the legal hurdles all the other guys that everyone is supporting here throw in the way?
There's a reason sawstop is pretty much the only new power tool company in x years, and it's not because of china or what have you.
It's because the industry eats them.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - tablesawtom - 02-04-2017
My wife just came a crossed my sales receipt for my General table saw I purchased form Woodsmith I bought it 09/16/95. I won't go into price or anything like that but it was the best saw I could afford at the time. Anyway I do love the saw and when it is warm enough to work in the shop without gloves I use it most every day. And I have talked to a few people who have the SS and they think theirs is a great saw too. I was at Hand Tool Works in Amana Ia. a coupe of years ago and the furniture factory there switched to sawstops for insurance and safety reasons.
At my age I simply can not afford the switch. But I would if I could. I would love the safety features as well as having a saw that has does a better than nothing job of dust collection. It is not about being able to afford loosing a finger but about putting food on the table and heating the house, paying for insurances, utilities and the list goes on. If I were younger and had a weekly paycheck I could count on I would buy one in a heart beat.
I really don't care about the owner or his business practices. Or his personal life or his compation. For me it is not about principle but that it is a quality product with added safety features that can not be passed over do to preconceived prejudices.
If I could I would disregard the 5 pages of bantering back and forth and purchase a saw stop in a heart beat. Opinions are like a nose every one has one and an opinion and $1.65 will buy two senior coffees at McDonalds.
I don't like to admit it but I have tangled with a saw blade and I vowed never to do it again But the dust collection and the extra protection and other features have won me over.
Tom
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Steve N - 02-04-2017
(02-04-2017, 01:59 AM)DanielBerlin Wrote: The thing that always gets me about these threads are the people who think the power tool institute (that would be the lobby for pretty much everyone else *but* sawstop) and friends don't lobby the CPSC or anyone else.
It's literally why they exist, and existed well before Steve came along.
And yes, there are literally hundreds of examples of them trying to get anyone they could to regulate this or that, to give them advantage, before Steve.
It's silly to think they didn't. It's public record, for gods sake.
In fact, they pretty much do everything they can to stop any new entrants in the market.
Because that's what they do.
If it wouldn't be too much trouble post a link of one such case where any company tried to have the CPSC force their product on an entire industry. You mention it is a frequent occurrence, all I would like to see is one example of this behavior, beside when Gass did it. Certainly it was covered at least as much as the SS hearing, if it ever happened before.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Admiral - 02-04-2017
Steve, lobbying for commercial advantage is so common, trade associations abound. SS did nothing that hasn't been done before, probably didn't have enough $$ to buy politicians, that's more than likely why it didn't work
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Richard D. - 02-04-2017
Admiral, Keep fighting the good fight but you'd probably be better off banging your head against a wall (at least that will feel better when you stop). You are not going to convince these red blooded Americans that Capitalism is good, they obviously hate it. As for a foreign company infringing on an American company's patents....well obviously the foreign country has every right to do so based on the opinion of the many patriots here (all legal stuff aside of course). Keep it up though because somewhere someone is reading along that realizes you make complete sense in the face of much emotion.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Steve N - 02-04-2017
Again instead of saying everyone does this, all I ask is you please post an example of any company petitioning the CPSC to have only their invention implemented as standard on every tool of it's kind. That is all, just post a link to the "other" company who has done this as Gass has. I believe if it ever would have been done like this before, that company would also be ridiculed by competition, as well as consumers, just like Gass has been, plus it would have been big news, just like this case was.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Steve N - 02-04-2017
(02-04-2017, 07:57 PM)Richard D. Wrote: You are not going to convince these red blooded Americans that Capitalism is good, they obviously hate it.
cap·i·tal·ism
ˈkapədlˌizəm/
noun
an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
synonyms: free enterprise, private enterprise, the free market; enterprise culture.
antonyms: communism
Google it if you like.
That is the problem us Americans have is that Gass isn't letting a free market decide, instead he is trying to get the gubmit to win his war for him, by making a ruling that no TS be made unless it has his finger Nanny on it. By and large America resists this type of situation, we are in favor of a free market where the best product for the best price is what we can buy, choice = free market. Gass getting the gubmit to give him the entire market if his device is mandated is certainly not capitalism, no choice = Communism
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Johnbro - 02-04-2017
(02-04-2017, 08:31 PM)Steve N Wrote: That is the problem us Americans have is that Gass isn't letting a free market decide, instead he is trying to get the gubmit to win his war for him, by making a ruling that no TS be made unless it has his finger Nanny on it. By and large America resists this type of situation, we are in favor of a free market where the best product for the best price is what we can buy, choice = free market. Gass getting the gubmit to give him the entire market if his device is mandated is certainly not capitalism, no choice = Communism
Actually...Gass IS giving the free market the choice and they seem to be overwhelmingly choosing the Saw Stop. Just try to find a used one--Delta, Powermatic, etc all available on CL but no SS. Why? Because people want them. The Market has spoken.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - JGrout - 02-04-2017
Quote:Actually...Gass IS giving the free market the choice and they seem to be overwhelmingly choosing the Saw Stop. Just try to find a used one--Delta, Powermatic, etc all available on CL but no SS. Why? Because people want them. The Market has spoken.
well that is the position of SS owners
the reason you see PM Delta and others available is more likely from guys passing or tiring of the hobby rather than people buying SS
Yes a few here and there are being sold but I would think more and more are looking at euro saws considering the money.
I know if I was looking that is where I go