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+-- Thread: Japanese Chisels - Why? (/showthread.php?tid=7340228)
RE: Japanese Chisels - Why? - AHill - 06-22-2018
(06-20-2018, 11:25 AM)adamcherubini Wrote: Oh, and I asked Roy once if he ever flattened his oilstones (I wanted to know how he did it) and he looked at me funny (like he does) and walked away. So...you can do good work with not much. My advice is not to sweat the choice. Pick one and make it work.
I never considered Roy Underhill to be a fine furniture craftsman, so it's no surprise he eschewed flattening his oil stones. (He's very competent, but I believe his aim is more to show how common furniture was made vs. something out of a fine furniture purveyor out of Philadelphia or NYC.) That said, I'm ignorant of what fine furniture makers might have done with their oil stones. Did they flatten them or simply let them dish out over time?
RE: Japanese Chisels - Why? - Hank Knight - 06-22-2018
(06-19-2018, 08:40 AM)Belle City Woodworking Wrote: Ok,
I am convinced and I am going to pull the trigger and try one....
I will start with one and then add as needed.
New Question:
This One:
https://www.japanwoodworker.com/products/1-2-blue-steel-dovetail-chisel-matsumura
Or this one:
https://www.japanwoodworker.com/products/1-2-white-steel-dovetail-chisel-matsumura?via=58923197617070231a00002d%2C58923197617070231a000033
Both are 1/2"
Thanks again,
John
![[Image: zoom.jpg?c=1487820188]](https://japanwoodworker-production-weblinc.netdna-ssl.com/product_images/1-2-blue-steel-dovetail-chisel-matsumura/58ae559c6170705960000469/zoom.jpg?c=1487820188)
John,
Both of those are excellent chisels. You won't be disappointed with either one. The blue steel chisel will keep it's edge longer in abrasive woods and "may" hold its edge a little longer than the white steel one. Many exotic species are abrasive. Most American hardwoods are not. The white steel dovetail chisel will work fine and is half the price of the flashy blue steel one. Another suggestion is the 1/2" "Cabinet" chisel shown at the bottom of the page with the white steel dovetail chisel. It is made of blue steel but lacks the flash and dash of the fancy, expensive blue steel one. The dovetail style has thin blades and is intended for delicate work. The cabinet chisels are a little more robust and will do well for all but the roughest tasks. They have thin tapered sides, so they work very well for dovetailing. I have them and some of the dovetail chisels. I can't tell much difference between them for dovetail work. I use the cabinet chisels almost exclusively. The blue steel chisel you posted is a beautiful tool, but very pricy; you pay for the bling. You can get the same performance for a lot less money.
My $.02.
Hank
RE: Japanese Chisels - Why? - adamcherubini - 06-22-2018
Beware of those beveled sides. I recommend wet grinding or not grinding. Its very easy to overheat those corners. Temper temperature on those tools could be 350F or less. Not hard to get there on a dry grinder.
Otherwise, looks like you are in for a treat. I'll bet you'll have a lot of fun with those new toys. Given the choice between the brands, I'd choose the brand that offers more sizes! 3/8" is nice to have. I like having 1/16th increments below 1/2" but not many manufacturers offer that.
RE: Japanese Chisels - Why? - adamcherubini - 06-22-2018
(06-22-2018, 07:48 AM)AHill Wrote: I never considered Roy Underhill to be a fine furniture craftsman, so it's no surprise he eschewed flattening his oil stones. (He's very competent, but I believe his aim is more to show how common furniture was made vs. something out of a fine furniture purveyor out of Philadelphia or NYC.) That said, I'm ignorant of what fine furniture makers might have done with their oil stones. Did they flatten them or simply let them dish out over time?
No idea. I think there are some documentary sources discussing flattening and/or flatness of stones. There's no way to know if the deeply dished stones we find were dished by pros or their hack grandchildren!
Sometimes I think its nice to have a tool with a non flat back. I've ruined perfectly good tools trying to flatten them. But you can maintain a flat backed tool with a dished stone if you are careful. They are pretty independent. My guess is, 18th c craftsmen didn't worry about it as much as we do! I think that was what Roy was trying to tell me.
Sometimes I think Roy's messages are more subtle than he thinks. I told him that once; that I had reread some of his books and learned something new (and significant to me) from them. I think that offended him. Roy is pretty deep. I think he's a very good craftsman and a very smart man. Alternatively, I attended to one of his lectures on wooden screw making (which I was doing quite a bit of at the time). He explained that when you use a screw box, its possible to feed wrong and develop a double thread. He found a period source discussing this phenomenon that described the wonky thread as a "drunken screw". Then Roy ended the lecture with "The importance of this "drunken screw" cannot be understated for were it not for a drunken screw, many of us would not be here today". That's right. Entire presentation was a set-up for that joke. Here I was paying attention, asking questions....doop!
apologies for the digression
RE: Japanese Chisels - Why? - Belle City Woodworking - 06-22-2018
(06-22-2018, 09:29 AM)Hank Knight Wrote: John,
Both of those are excellent chisels. You won't be disappointed with either one. The blue steel chisel will keep it's edge longer in abrasive woods and "may" hold its edge a little longer than the white steel one. Many exotic species are abrasive. Most American hardwoods are not. The white steel dovetail chisel will work fine and is half the price of the flashy blue steel one. Another suggestion is the 1/2" "Cabinet" chisel shown at the bottom of the page with the white steel dovetail chisel. It is made of blue steel but lacks the flash and dash of the fancy, expensive blue steel one. The dovetail style has thin blades and is intended for delicate work. The cabinet chisels are a little more robust and will do well for all but the roughest tasks. They have thin tapered sides, so they work very well for dovetailing. I have them and some of the dovetail chisels. I can't tell much difference between them for dovetail work. I use the cabinet chisels almost exclusively. The blue steel chisel you posted is a beautiful tool, but very pricy; you pay for the bling. You can get the same performance for a lot less money.
My $.02.
Hank
Hank and others,
Thanks for that info, I am going to get this one and try it out. I have shaptons that I will be using to sharpen this.
This is the one I am going to try.....
1/2" Cabinet Chisel - Blue Steel
![[Image: detail.jpg?c=1487820187]](https://japanwoodworker-production-weblinc.netdna-ssl.com/product_images/1-2-matsumura-blue-steel-cabinet-chisel/58ae559b6170705960000466/detail.jpg?c=1487820187)
The way you all make them sound I should feel a bit of Chisel Nirvana
Thanks again,
John
RE: Japanese Chisels - Why? - Hank Knight - 06-22-2018
Good choice. I have that chisel and use it all the time. Your Shaptons will do a good job on it.
RE: Japanese Chisels - Why? - bandit571 - 06-22-2018
Afraid one of my Japanese chisels..
[attachment=11131]
is just a 12mm Mortise chisel....from Okinawa. $10, counting shipping.
The other is simply marked "JAPAN" on the back..
[attachment=11132]
And stamped "dropped Forged" 1/2" ( it's the short one, in the middle)
The mortise chisel does have a few markings, just too faint to read clearly
[attachment=11133]
Back view..
[attachment=11134]
And the bevel....as shipped.
RE: Japanese Chisels - Why? - Tony Z - 06-23-2018
(06-22-2018, 07:48 AM)AHill Wrote: I never considered Roy Underhill to be a fine furniture craftsman, so it's no surprise he eschewed flattening his oil stones. (He's very competent, but I believe his aim is more to show how common furniture was made vs. something out of a fine furniture purveyor out of Philadelphia or NYC.) That said, I'm ignorant of what fine furniture makers might have done with their oil stones. Did they flatten them or simply let them dish out over time?
I remember a (IIRC) a letter to the editor of FWW, saying the same thing about St. Roy, and going further the slam Norm, saying how can anyone be a furniture maker while wearing a carpenter's tool belt?
Sometimes we forget it is the end result we are after and how we get there only matters to us during the journey.
RE: Japanese Chisels - Why? - bandit571 - 06-23-2018
Yep, tis hard sometimes....can't see the entire picture, when the nose one is looking down gets in the way...
RE: Japanese Chisels - Why? - Timberwolf - 06-24-2018
(06-23-2018, 05:46 AM)Tony Z Wrote: I remember a (IIRC) a letter to the editor of FWW, saying the same thing about St. Roy, and going further the slam Norm, saying how can anyone be a furniture maker while wearing a carpenter's tool belt?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Sometimes we forget it is the end result we are after and how we get there only matters to us during the journey.
"Sometimes we forget it is the end result we are after and how we get there only matters to us during the journey."
Well said, Tony !!!!!..Some folks give the tools all the credit in the belief that only the finest tools can produce the finest work..You and I remember when we would laugh at the "tools" coming to us from Japan...then we stopped laughing at them and started laughing at the tools coming from Taiwan....and now we are laughing at the tools coming from China...and all the while even they are getting better and better!!!!..Many folks on this forum laughed and ridiculed tools from Harbor Freight.....yet HF is now firmly entrenched with establishments all over this country, giving Americans what they want at prices that they don't mind paying....They are not laughing at them anymore.....
