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+-- Thread: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? (/showthread.php?tid=7341500)
RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? - TraditionalToolworks - 08-11-2018
(08-11-2018, 07:50 AM)Timberwolf Wrote: .........................
I used a new Deer Brand German "gent's saw" for my sacrificial lamb, but I reconfigured the teeth rake angle so it would cut correctly...
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Hi Jack, nothing wrong with this at all, I've used a Crown gent saw for the first saw I made. The reason I used the Crown is that the TPI and size of the plate was almost identical to the Disstton 68. I'm not a big Disstton fan, but I am a collector of the dovetail saws. Like these...
RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? - Admiral - 08-11-2018
(08-11-2018, 02:27 PM)TraditionalToolworks Wrote: Hi Jack, nothing wrong with this at all, I've used a Crown gent saw for the first saw I made. The reason I used the Crown is that the TPI and size of the plate was almost identical to the Disstton 68. I'm not a big Disstton fan, but I am a collector of the dovetail saws. Like these...
Gent's saws are very underrated. Steel is usually as good as high priced makers, again, the rubber hits the road as to how they are sharpened and set. A new handle just transforms them, if you get the hang right.
RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? - Mike Brady - 08-11-2018
(08-11-2018, 02:48 PM)Admiral Wrote: Gent's saws are very underrated. Steel is usually as good as high priced makers, again, the rubber hits the road as to how they are sharpened and set. A new handle just transforms them, if you get the hang rig ht.
I love my LN gents saws. Perfection. I use them on smaller dovetails.
RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? - bandit571 - 08-11-2018
Unable to use any sort of Gent's Saws.....Uncle Arthur ( itis) makes gripping them very painful.....even have a hard time with coping saws.
At one time, I did have a Disston and a Sheffield.....one crosscut, and one rip......gave up on both. Now I just use an older Disston No. 4....14"...filed rip. Use it for all the joinery work I do. Both of the Mitre boxes also use Disston No. 4s....Stanley No. 2246 and a Langdon 75 ACME use the No. 4 model. Just a little bit bigger, is all.
RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? - TraditionalToolworks - 08-11-2018
(08-11-2018, 07:06 PM)bandit571 Wrote: Unable to use any sort of Gent's Saws.....Uncle Arthur ( itis) makes gripping them very painful.....even have a hard time with coping saws.
bandit,
Let me ask you. What makes it painful? Is it because the handle is smaller and when you grip it it hurts? I could see that being a problem with pistol/closed grip the same. I wonder if a bigger handle would remedy that problem? I've been to a few maker user groups and at one a vendor showed up that had some pearl shaped plastic that you heat up in boiling water. You then mold it to your hand and can use it like a handle. I know people with arthritis that have used this type of product successfully.
(08-11-2018, 07:06 PM)bandit571 Wrote: At one time, I did have a Disston and a Sheffield.....one crosscut, and one rip......gave up on both. Now I just use an older Disston No. 4....14"...filed rip. Use it for all the joinery work I do. Both of the Mitre boxes also use Disston No. 4s....Stanley No. 2246 and a Langdon 75 ACME use the No. 4 model. Just a little bit bigger, is all.
Nothing wrong with a Disstton #4, I have a number of them, although I prefer English saws from the 19th Century, and anything before 1875 or earlier is my preference. These saws are typically pretty brittle, and the teeth break easily when trying to set, but they are just the coolest saws for me.
I don't really collect saws too often anymore, occasionally I'll go look but they always go for a lot more money than I want to pay. I only have a couple vintage dovetail saws from the U.K., there weren't a lot of them and I don't get especially excited about them as I feel a larger saw is more practical. If I was starting out cutting joinery I would get a pair of 14" Sash/Carcass saws, 14tpi, one rip and one x-cut, with 2-1/2" deep plate, .020" thick plate. This is about the most practical for most people, can cut 8/4 stock (dovetail saw can't do that), and cut any 8/4 timber of any style (M/T, dovetail, finger, box, etc...). People get too wrapped up on "dovetail" saws and they are useful, but not very practical overall. In modern times this is less of an issue, many people have a dozen backsaws. But in days of yore when you could only afford one saw, or even a pair, less people would spend the money on a dovetail saw and would get something more practical. This is why we don't see too many old dovetail saws, IMO, and rightfully so...as I mentioned, I like a Sash style saw with a slightly thinner plate than would normally be used.
Alan
RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? - bandit571 - 08-11-2018
Gripping the round "broom handle" style handles....is what the trouble is. IF I were to swing an Estwing hammer more than a couple times.....it would be going the wrong way...as the grip not only hurts...I can't get the fingers to bend tight enough to hold things. Maybe it is the way a pistol grip style fits the hand better? Different angles of the hand and wrist?
Have a Disston D-112, a D-100 ( OLD style, 1920s era) a few D- 7s and D-8s. Some are rip, some are 8-10ppi crosscut. Some are full length 26"ers, and some are panel saws.
There is a couple Atkins and a Richardson Brothers in the till, as well. Coping saws are everywhere....but I need to grip them a little differently than most people do....
RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? - Tony Z - 08-11-2018
After nearly 15 years of hand cutting dovetails (jigs before!), I've found it less to be the saw, than how I hold my tongue. I've cut them with a crap load of different style of saws, and though I have saw preferences, there are many other variables that affect the outcome.
RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? - TraditionalToolworks - 08-11-2018
(08-11-2018, 08:23 PM)bandit571 Wrote: Gripping the round "broom handle" style handles....is what the trouble is. IF I were to swing an Estwing hammer more than a couple times...Does that mean swinging a hammer is something you won't be able to comfortable do? I have a friend that tried to create some products for handicapped people, and in most regards this is similar.
(08-11-2018, 08:23 PM)bandit571 Wrote: it would be going the wrong way...as the grip not only hurts...I can't get the fingers to bend tight enough to hold things. Maybe it is the way a pistol grip style fits the hand better? Different angles of the hand and wrist?Certainly has something to do with it. When you say "going the wrong way", I think that relates to how you hold the tool vs. how it is used.
(08-11-2018, 08:23 PM)bandit571 Wrote: Have a Disston D-112, a D-100 ( OLD style, 1920s era) a few D- 7s and D-8s. Some are rip, some are 8-10ppi crosscut. Some are full length 26"ers, and some are panel saws.I only have a couple full size saws, but do most of my dimensioning with power tools. I know that using hand tools is romantic, many of us have that relationship with it, but I like to leave it to the joinery, get the other stuff done and prepped and finish it with hand tools. Just my preference.
(08-11-2018, 08:35 PM)Tony Z Wrote: After nearly 15 years of hand cutting dovetails (jigs before!), I've found it less to be the saw, than how I hold my tongue. I've cut them with a crap load of different style of saws, and though I have saw preferences, there are many other variables that affect the outcome.^^^^^^^this, although I find the way I twitch my nose is what makes a difference for me...LOL
There really isn't much more to say, you learn to use the tool you have...and if that's a new Stanely Made in China handsaw, that's what it is. Just be fair and don't blame the tool, do the best you can with it.
Alan
RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? - bandit571 - 08-11-2018
By "going the wrong way"....means anyone standing behind me was in danger of getting hit by the flying hammer.
All of my user hammers now have a ring of black plastic tape right at the end of the hammer...when I feel the hand hit the tape, I stop and re-grip. 
Some days....it just makes more sense to use a handsaw to cut boards down to length. Other days...a circular saw comes out. I tend not to get it too much of a rush in the shop.....bad things happen when you hurry. No time card for the shop....I can take how ever long it takes. IF it takes four hours to build a drawer....that is what it will take, BUT, the drawer will be done right, the first time.
Tend to find out, that rushing around leads to do re-cuts....or worse. 
BTW: I am mainly hand tool in the shop, because a lack of room for the big machines.....Bandsaw is as big as I can go, power tool wise. besides, my "Dust Collector " involves a broom and a dust pan....
RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? - TraditionalToolworks - 08-12-2018
(08-11-2018, 10:47 PM)bandit571 Wrote: By "going the wrong way"....means anyone standing behind me was in danger of getting hit by the flying hammer.Many people, myself included reposition their hammer while swinging it. Certainly I do that when forging, but typically don't do a lot of nailing and when I do I use the solution I recommend to you, pneumatic nail gun!
(08-11-2018, 10:47 PM)bandit571 Wrote: BTW: I am mainly hand tool in the shop, because a lack of room for the big machines.....Bandsaw is as big as I can go, power tool wise. besides, my "Dust Collector " involves a broom and a dust pan....
I'm not married to hand tools, but enjoy using them, and have a shop for hand tools only, both metal and wood (2 crafts that do not mix well together). I have moved most all of my power tools for woodworking out of my home (power) shop as I have pretty much dedicated it to metalworking. Trying to do both is difficult at best. Most of my machines are being stored until I get my foundation in for a house I'm trying to build. However, the one saw I have at home is a bandsaw. I have a few other tools in a shed in my backyard, but a bandsaw can do most of the work if I need to dimension before I clean it up with hand tools. While a band saw is not as square and accurate as a table saw, it is way more versatile, IMO, and compliments hand tools much better. One could argue that a fret/coping saw can do similar work...yes it can, if you have the time.
I just don't find it enjoyable to spend so much time ripping timbers or prepping my projects with a full size hand saw. It's the joinery I like doing, and what I typically like to focus on.
Speaking of bandsaws, one of the greatest saws I've purchased is a bandmill. There is nothing quite like turning a raw tree into furniture. Yeah, I know...you can use a pit saw...and I'd say, go ahead!
FWIW, my dust collection and chip collection in both of my shops is a broom and dustpan. Still, I'm not married to hand tools...I'd take a nice tornado collector and the new shop will get one made.
Alan - we're all different, not trying to advocate what I do, just explaining it.