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+-- Thread: Saw Stop/Bosch Patent Infringement (/showthread.php?tid=7323817)
Saw Stop/Bosch Patent Infringement - Admiral - 10-13-2016
Well, at the risk of starting a donnybrook, it appear SS won the first round of the dispute, having secured an initial determination by an Administrative Law Judge that Bosch infringed on two of the four claimed patents. I am sure there will be the administrative law equivalent of an appeal, so its not totally over, but if it holds up, Bosch must either license the two patents, or stop importing into the US market.
Here's a link to the gist of the ruling:
http://jonesdayitcblog.com/alj-finds-violation-of-section-337-in-table-saws-investigation/
and for those who want to torture themselves reading the actual ruling (154 pages), although parts are very interesting, here you go:
http://jonesdayitcblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/965-ID.pdf
Discussion of SS's "misuse" of its patents, which was not found to be the case by the judge, starts at page 140........
Ok boys and girls, go at it!
RE: Saw Stop/Bosch Patent Infringement - Phil Thien - 10-13-2016
I guess as long as Bosch appeals, the lower court findings are somewhat irrelevant.
I know that sounds flippant but look at what has happened with the Apple v. Samsung case now that it has landed (partially) in front of the Supreme Court, where it seems to be the opinion of the majority that the patents infringed were minor and didn't justify the award of all of Samsung's profits on the phones in question.
The point being, these wars are fought by titans with deep pockets. They tend to appeal findings until they run out of courts, they never run out of do-re-mi to pay the cost of doing so.
RE: Saw Stop/Bosch Patent Infringement - Stwood_ - 10-13-2016
Meh. I just hope they can get it worked out, and back to business.
Doesn't bother/affect me one way or another. Not planning on buying another tablesaw.
RE: Saw Stop/Bosch Patent Infringement - AHill - 10-13-2016
The '927 and '279 patents that the judge ruled were violated pretty much would kill anybody else making a flesh-sensing saw that retracts or stops a blade. They are the most general patents owned by SawStop and they very describe the concept of a saw that senses contact with the blade using the "blade as an antenna", then brakes and/or retracts the blade as a reaction to the contact. I read a lot of Gass' patents and they are very intentionally worded as broadly as possible to protect his intellectual property. Don't care for his lobbying tactics, but as a lawyer, he pretty much covered most every aspect of his inventions, including variations thereof. Given these are the patents the judge ruled were violated, I don't see a whole lot Bosch Reaxx saws making their way into anyone's garage for quite some time. Kudos to Bosch for trying to bring an alternate technology into the game, but if this ruling stands, everyone else will likely back off and wait until the SawStop patents expire.
RE: Saw Stop/Bosch Patent Infringement - Rick F - 10-14-2016
Bosch spent the money on R+D .. that value will still be there when the patent expires.
Gass invented it, he has the same patent rights as any other inventor..
RE: Saw Stop/Bosch Patent Infringement - EricU - 10-14-2016
(10-13-2016, 06:57 PM)AHill Wrote: The '927 and '279 patents that the judge ruled were violated pretty much would kill anybody else making a flesh-sensing saw that retracts or stops a blade. They are the most general patents owned by SawStop and they very describe the concept of a saw that senses contact with the blade using the "blade as an antenna", then brakes and/or retracts the blade as a reaction to the contact.I agree with the judge that using the blade to detect contact is novel and patentable. Seems to me that braking and retracting are not novel, especially since it's done totally different ways between the two saws.
RE: Saw Stop/Bosch Patent Infringement - Handplanesandmore - 10-18-2016
As a consumer, I hope SawStop will win the case so the outcome sends a message to the big companies that they can choose not to adopt any new invention from a small player (for whatever reason), but they can't infringe on the small player's patents.
While it is true that big companies have the resources to drag out cases in the court system, but it doesn't necessarily or blindly mean that they will. Their legal departments or counsels will still have to weight the chances as well as benefits vs costs.
No matter how this case ends, SawStop's contributions to the safety of woodworkers are established in the history book.
Simon
RE: Saw Stop/Bosch Patent Infringement - Cabinet Monkey - 10-19-2016
As a consumer, I hope Bosch prevails because competition breeds a better product for all of us and that outcome sends a message that lawyers cannot hijack the marketplace or government oversight.
This isn't as simple as david vs. goliath and SS would garner more sympathy IF they had originally manufactured and sold a Saw - they didn't - . They tried to strong arm and entire industry into adopting their invention instead of selling it on it's merits. They wanted Big Brother to mandate to you and me instead of letting the marketplace decide.
What do you think will happen when the SS factory has a bad day and produces a defective brake or a disgruntled worker pulls a tylenol type sabotage on them and someone cuts their finger(s) ?
RE: Saw Stop/Bosch Patent Infringement - vernonator - 10-20-2016
(10-19-2016, 08:24 PM)Cabinet Monkey Wrote: As a consumer, I hope Bosch prevails because competition breeds a better product for all of us and that outcome sends a message that lawyers cannot hijack the marketplace or government oversight.
This isn't as simple as david vs. goliath and SS would garner more sympathy IF they had originally manufactured and sold a Saw - they didn't - . They tried to strong arm and entire industry into adopting their invention instead of selling it on it's merits. They wanted Big Brother to mandate to you and me instead of letting the marketplace decide.
What do you think will happen when the SS factory has a bad day and produces a defective brake or a disgruntled worker pulls a tylenol type sabotage on them and someone cuts their finger(s) ?
This....
RE: Saw Stop/Bosch Patent Infringement - Steve N - 10-20-2016
(10-19-2016, 08:24 PM)Cabinet Monkey Wrote: They wanted Big Brother to mandate to you and me instead of letting the marketplace decide.
What do you think will happen when the SS factory has a bad day and produces a defective brake or a disgruntled worker pulls a tylenol type sabotage on them and someone cuts their finger(s) ?
I think it is really about this that most people dislike SS, and root for anyone else to win. I've stated that bad day thought before. Lawyers will rip Gass to shreds, and seeing that he's used the law to get there, it will be fun to watch his demise. Only problem with that scenario is a buncha dum bastaiges who drank the cool-aid will end up getting hurt too, and that rather sux
