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+-- Thread: Aniline dye rubbing off - what to do? (/showthread.php?tid=7324610)
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Aniline dye rubbing off - what to do? - SSolomon - 11-05-2016
I recently completed a mahogany tea table. For finish, I started with water-soluble aniline dye from Lee Valley (I think it's Lockwood) and applied three coats of Tru-Oil (didn't want to build up too shiny a finish). After waxing (Behlen Deluxing Compound), I put it in the living room and all was good. Unfortunately, I went to wipe the table down today (about two weeks after finishing) and my rag came up red/brown.
I guess the three coats of Tru-Oil weren't enough to seal in the dye. Really wish I had thought of that possibility and tested before waxing. Does the dye ever set, or do I need to figure out how to add more sealing coats? Does anyone have any suggestions for how to fix it? I assume I can't apply more Tru-Oil over the top of the wax. Thanks,
Sean
RE: Aniline dye rubbing off - what to do? - BassMD - 11-05-2016
I think the solvent in the Deluxing Compound softened up or partially dissolved the Tru-Oil, allowing the aniline pigment to become fugitive. I would have sealed the pigment in with a couple light coats of Zinser Seal-Coat shellac. When dry, Tru-Oil can be applied on top, but because it is sealed, will become shiny. So rather than waxing the surface you can take down the gloss with Micro-Mesh or steel wool. To fix your current situation, you can try removing the wax with mineral spirits or lacquer thinner. Then you'd need to let it dry for a good while before putting on more top coats. i would rate your possibility of success with this method as 50/50. I'm sure there are some other ways to fix this too. Good luck! P.S. Maybe that was oil-soluble, not water soluble dye...
RE: Aniline dye rubbing off - what to do? - motleyh - 11-11-2016
Water and oil don't mix -- you can't use an oil-based finish over a water-based dye, unless you use a barrier coat in between. Otherwise the oil will loosen/smear the water-based color as you described. For a barrier coat, use a dewaxed shellac or a good sanding sealer. When dry they'll produce a surface that the oil finish can adhere to.
RE: Aniline dye rubbing off - what to do? - MikeBob - 11-11-2016
Most Sanding Sealers are a 2lb cut dewaxed Shellac. Light coat, I use a Green Scotch Brite pad to buff after the Shellac, then an oil based stain or go right to oil based Poly depending on what I am looking to achieve.
RE: Aniline dye rubbing off - what to do? - jteneyck - 11-11-2016
(11-11-2016, 06:46 PM)motleyh Wrote: Water and oil don't mix -- you can't use an oil-based finish over a water-based dye, unless you use a barrier coat in between. Otherwise the oil will loosen/smear the water-based color as you described. For a barrier coat, use a dewaxed shellac or a good sanding sealer. When dry they'll produce a surface that the oil finish can adhere to.
Of course you can use an OB finish over a water based dye. After the WB dye has dried the OB finish will soak into the wood just like normal; there is no incompatibility. And the OB finish won't pick up the dye, because the dye isn't soluble in oil, and you can apply the finish any way you want.
What you can't use is a WB finish over a WB dye, unless you spray it on.
John
RE: Aniline dye rubbing off - what to do? - MikeBob - 11-11-2016
OP, just get this book it is a finishing Bible. Life is not this hard, Just get the facts, not opinions here!!!
https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Wood-Finishing-Woodworker-Hardcover/dp/1565235487/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1478918569&sr=1-1&keywords=bob+flexner
RE: Aniline dye rubbing off - what to do? - MikeBob - 11-12-2016
This is the soft cover, lots cheaper.
https://www.amazon.com/Bob-Flexner-Understanding-Wood-Finishing/dp/B00JQSLNGW/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1478997724&sr=1-8&keywords=bob+flexner
RE: Aniline dye rubbing off - what to do? - AHill - 11-12-2016
(11-11-2016, 08:29 PM)jteneyck Wrote: Of course you can use an OB finish over a water based dye. After the WB dye has dried the OB finish will soak into the wood just like normal; there is no incompatibility. And the OB finish won't pick up the dye, because the dye isn't soluble in oil, and you can apply the finish any way you want.
What you can't use is a WB finish over a WB dye, unless you spray it on.
John
+1.
A quote from Lee Valley on water soluble aniline dyes:
"They are inexpensive and easy to blend. They penetrate well and can be used under any type of finish. The stains can be applied by dipping, sponging, brushing, or spraying. These are concentrated."
The key is to let it dry thoroughly before applying the finish. It's quite possible the solvents in the wax caused some breakdown, if applied before the finish wasn't completely cured. Again, let the finish cure completely before waxing. At least a week. When in doubt, read the instructions.
RE: Aniline dye rubbing off - what to do? - JGrout - 11-15-2016
one should really stop using internet resources for information that is generally available to anyone and given freely
There are two here who responded with experienced first hand knowledge on a solution
your way we would have no call to have forums like this at your disposal, we could just all say
go somewhere else and get your information
![[Image: yellowrolleyes.gif]](https://forums.woodnet.net/images/graemlins/yellowrolleyes.gif)
RE: Aniline dye rubbing off - what to do? - SSolomon - 11-20-2016
Thanks for the responses guys. I read those instructions from Lee Valley, and felt pretty safe with the course I took. What didn't occur to me was the possibility that the dye wouldn't "set" - so to speak - such that it would continue to be affected by water. Next time I will go with shellac to seal it better.
For this project, I'm tempted to just leave it as is. The finish doesn't rub off in day to day use, only if you wipe at it with a damp cloth and even then only slightly (you can see it on the rag but not the table). Perhaps a paste wax will help protect the dye from any accidental spills?