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+-- Thread: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news (/showthread.php?tid=7327525)
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Admiral - 02-10-2017
(02-09-2017, 11:12 PM)JGrout Wrote: 2 Forcing regulators who visit shops to fine the pants off employers who are not using safety equipment causing a trickle down effect so much so that an official can walk into any shop including your hobby shop or jobsite at any time and shut the operation down until they are in compliance with the regulations
Joe, OSHA has no jurisdiction over sole proprietorships so long as you don't hire temporary labor, "Alternative facts" notwithstanding.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Admiral - 02-10-2017
Something just struck me about the belt and suspenders issue, and maybe some here are not old enough to remember, but in the '60s when seatbelts were first made standard equipment in vehicles, few actually used them and they were tucked under the seat. Then in the 80's you could be ticketed and use increased, then front airbags came, and now side airbags. I guess one could call that the dreaded "nanny" auto safety.
I think the seatbelt/airbag combination is totally analogous - auto supplementary safety system versus machinery supplementary safety system. Since every American family might not have and use a table saw daily, a la automobiles, I doubt SS technology will be required by law or regulation anytime soon, if at all in the current regulatory environment. The market will drive use of the technology, and clearly Bosch sees a market they have to be in.
But if the "nanny" crowd is to be consistent in what is obviously more of a political issue for them, and not a rational safety issue, who among us will stop using seatbelts (e.g., TS guards) and disable their airbags (e.g., SS technology)?
Just a thought . . .
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - JGrout - 02-10-2017
(02-10-2017, 07:48 AM)Admiral Wrote: Joe, OSHA has no jurisdiction over sole proprietorships so long as you don't hire temporary labor, "Alternative facts" notwithstanding.
I am fully aware of the present limitations of OSHA
I also know it would be a simple matter to change the ability for them to rule with an iron fist.
I also know that the above was in fact an attempt to make people look at what could happen given an iron fist approach such as Gass's attempt to cut everyone else out of the market.
I got your attention didn't I
Bach
The idea of attempting to phase out older saws over time does nothing to allay your concerns about safety
This is Catch 22
Joe
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - JGrout - 02-10-2017
I dislike the analogy of auto safety / TS safety for one important reason:
I have never had anyone attempt to injure me (other than myself which leads to my stance of personal responsibility) with a table saw.
There is a huge difference between one turning on a saw and whacking off a few fingers
And a careless driver hurtling at me at speeds equal to or greater than me.
Now when Gass makes "the other auto stop before I am injured" I am all in
Joe
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Bach1750 - 02-10-2017
Joe, I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here. If at some future date, makers of table saws are no longer allowed to make saws without a flesh sensing type technology, over time, as older saws are retired, the ratio of new safer table saws to old less safe table saws will increase. This will lead to fewer injuries, which is good.
I'm not suggesting that any one measure could eradicate table saw injuries overnight, or that existing table saws could or should be outlawed. People use older and less safe technology all the time, but at their own risk. If a regulation as outlined in my previous post were passed, you could still choose to keep your current saw, or buy a used saw if you needed to, but you would do it at your own risk, knowing that a safer saw was available to you.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Admiral - 02-10-2017
(02-10-2017, 11:00 AM)JGrout Wrote: I got your attention didn't I
Joe
Only because it was incorrect.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - JGrout - 02-10-2017
We are right now at that point where Catch 22 is in full play
we cannot slow injuries without eliminating the old saws or reeducating operators in safe use of said older saws
and we cannot step on the feet of the manufacturers and tell them to stop making the very saws that injure people who do not use the existing technology ( guards /splitters/ knives/ anti kickback (that is setting up a monopoly by one manufacturer)
We are not even to the crossroads between the two sides and Gass via court rulings refuses to allow similar technology to exist in the market as competition
My stand has never wavered. One cannot protect your technology to the point no one can compete without creating the very issue that the past 6 pages ( or however many posts you have your browser set up to look at) without some give someplace. Perfect example: Bosch tried to bring the Reaxx saw to the market , Gass shut it down
Ergo Catch 22
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - JGrout - 02-10-2017
(02-10-2017, 02:01 PM)Admiral Wrote: Only because it was incorrect.
the downside to a hypothetical statement.
if you miss the intent
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - fixtureman - 02-10-2017
If the courts would rule that all saws have flesh sensing tech then they should also rule that any flesh sensing tech is lawful.
RE: Bosch (Reaxx) Lost Suit to SawStop news - Bach1750 - 02-10-2017
we cannot slow injuries without eliminating the old saws or reeducating operators in safe use of said older saws. Yes, older saws could be phased out over time as described in my previous post.
and we cannot step on the feet of the manufacturers and tell them to stop making the very saws that injure people who do not use the existing technology ( guards /splitters/ knives/ anti kickback (that is setting up a monopoly by one manufacturer) Yes, regulatory agencies could tell the manufacturers what to do, as described in my previous post. This is what they do.
We are not even to the crossroads between the two sides and Gass via court rulings refuses to allow similar technology to exist in the market as competition. Mr. Gass does not have the power to allow or dis-allow anything. He can simply defend is patent. Any other manufacturer can engineer their own system and submit it for patent as Bosch did, they just can't infringe on the SS patent, as Bosch did.
My stand has never wavered. One cannot protect your technology to the point no one can compete without creating the very issue that the past 6 pages ( or however many posts you have your browser set up to look at) without some give someplace. Perfect example: Bosch tried to bring the Reaxx saw to the market , Gass shut it down Mr. Gass did not shut it down, he protected his patent. Bosch failed to engineer their own system.
Ergo Catch 22 This is a non-sequitur.