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Finishing Outdoor Cedar Table - MHensler - 03-24-2018
Hi everyone. I built an outdoor picnic table with drink cooler inserts out of cedar two years ago. Not knowing what my best course of action was for finishing, I was told that if I wanted to maintain the natural look, it would be best to apply a UV inihibiting finish and to avoid non surface coating finishes (as opposed to a true penetrating product). Well, long story short, I made the stupid decision to go with Flood UV finish which after about one year of use (the table is moved indoors during the winter), it developed a lot of dark gray/black streaks/spots. I sanded it down this winter in the barn and it looks good again, but now I want to make sure I do it right.
I’m ok with having to retreat periodically, but would hope I can find a product that lasts at least two full seasons. I want to retain as much of the natural (non aged) cedar color as possible long term.
Price isn’t a factor.
What’s my best bet?
Thanks.
RE: Finishing Outdoor Cedar Table - photobug - 03-24-2018
(03-24-2018, 05:58 AM)MHensler Wrote: I’m ok with having to retreat periodically, but would hope I can find a product that lasts at least two full seasons. I want to retain as much of the natural (non aged) cedar color as possible long term.
Price isn’t a factor.
What’s my best bet?
Thanks.
About 2 years ago I built a double adirondack and asked the same question. Based on some recommendations and previous happy experience I went with General Finishes Exterior 450. After 3 coats, it did not last 6 months, I wish I took others advice to go with an untinted exterior enamel.
People suggested Sherwin Williams A100. Get it untinted so it is just the base latex. In another thread someone had good reviews for untinted Lowes Latex.
RE: Finishing Outdoor Cedar Table - photobug - 03-24-2018
Some other to consider is a penetrating epoxy, covered with a spar varnish.
The epoxy will be absorbed into the wood and make a very bomber outside coating on the wood. The one drawback is epoxy is not UV safe, so will degrade unless protected by an varnish coating. This is a lifetime finish, you will just need to refinish the spar varnish layer every other year or so to protect the epoxy layer.
http://www.finewoodworking.com/2009/05/13/the-ultimate-outdoor-finish
RE: Finishing Outdoor Cedar Table - jteneyck - 03-24-2018
I don't think it was a stupid decision at all to use the Flood UV product. It's a very good product. But all you can expect out of it in a horizontal application is a year, at best. I don't even get that with the oil type deck coatings I've been using on my Ipe' deck.
But ask yourself how much work you want to lavish on this table every year. If you start down the path of a film finish as others have recommended, you might not have to do anything for a year or two, but then you will need to religiously maintain that finish. If it cracks somewhere water will get under it and then you will have to at least spot sand and recoat it. Every two or three years you will have to sand the whole thing and put on at least one coat of finish.
There is no maintenance free option unless you like gray and moldy. If you are looking for the lowest maintenance option that still looks pretty good, I think you already have it. Maybe another penetrating finish would last a little longer, but likely not much longer. The best thing I think you can do to keep it looking good between recoating it is to wash it with deck cleaner or whatever is recommended by the finish you choose.
You can greatly extend the life cycle of any finish you decide on if you keep the table under cover except when you use it. I have a wood bench and table outdoors. The black locust bench is done with Epifanes Marine Varnish, the Sapele table with Penofin Hardwood Oil. The bench is about 6 years old, sat out uncovered year round, and has had two major rehabs. Now I keep it covered with an outdoor furniture cover when I'm not using it. Same with the table. After one year I see no change in the finish on either.
John
RE: Finishing Outdoor Cedar Table - cme4dk - 03-25-2018
(03-24-2018, 10:01 AM)jteneyck Wrote: I don't think it was a stupid decision at all to use the Flood UV product. It's a very good product. But all you can expect out of it in a horizontal application is a year, at best. I don't even get that with the oil type deck coatings I've been using on my Ipe' deck.Does the same advice apply to white oak? This past fall I completed a double rocker made out of white oak and it has been sitting in my basement waiting for the weather to clear and now it is time to apply a finish. I planned on using GF Exterior 450, but this is the first negative comment I heard about that produce.
But ask yourself how much work you want to lavish on this table every year. If you start down the path of a film finish as others have recommended, you might not have to do anything for a year or two, but then you will need to religiously maintain that finish. If it cracks somewhere water will get under it and then you will have to at least spot sand and recoat it. Every two or three years you will have to sand the whole thing and put on at least one coat of finish.
There is no maintenance free option unless you like gray and moldy. If you are looking for the lowest maintenance option that still looks pretty good, I think you already have it. Maybe another penetrating finish would last a little longer, but likely not much longer. The best thing I think you can do to keep it looking good between recoating it is to wash it with deck cleaner or whatever is recommended by the finish you choose.
You can greatly extend the life cycle of any finish you decide on if you keep the table under cover except when you use it. I have a wood bench and table outdoors. The black locust bench is done with Epifanes Marine Varnish, the Sapele table with Penofin Hardwood Oil. The bench is about 6 years old, sat out uncovered year round, and has had two major rehabs. Now I keep it covered with an outdoor furniture cover when I'm not using it. Same with the table. After one year I see no change in the finish on either.
John
Jay
RE: Finishing Outdoor Cedar Table - jteneyck - 03-25-2018
(03-25-2018, 06:47 AM)cme4dk Wrote: Does the same advice apply to white oak? This past fall I completed a double rocker made out of white oak and it has been sitting in my basement waiting for the weather to clear and now it is time to apply a finish. I planned on using GF Exterior 450, but this is the first negative comment I heard about that produce.
Jay
Yes. White oak is favored as an exterior wood because it is very rot resistant. That doesn't mean it will look good w/o finish or that the finish won't require maintenance. I think GF Exterior 450 is a good product for vertical applications. I used it on an exterior house door. But no finish holds up very long on horizontal surfaces if left to the elements w/o maintenance. I saw a planter box done with GF 450 at my local Rocklers. The picture frame trim around the top blistered in less than a year. The Epifanes Marine Varnish I used on my outdoor bench lasted 3 years before it started to crack and blister. That probably wouldn't have happened had I followed the directions and applied at least one new coat each year. I had to do a pretty major rehab on it to get it looking new again. Now I keep a cover over it.
If you want it to look good with minimal maintenance keep it under a porch or put an outdoor furniture cover over it when not using it. If you plan to leave it out in the elements w/o a cover I would use a penetrating oil type finish and clean and re-oil it as needed.
John
RE: Finishing Outdoor Cedar Table - photobug - 03-25-2018
(03-25-2018, 06:47 AM)cme4dk Wrote: Does the same advice apply to white oak? This past fall I completed a double rocker made out of white oak and it has been sitting in my basement waiting for the weather to clear and now it is time to apply a finish. I planned on using GF Exterior 450, but this is the first negative comment I heard about that produce.I love woodworking but hate finishing. After discovering General Finishes years ago I hated finishing less. At that time most of my project were for my brewing hobby, so moisture was a factor even though they were indoor projects. The ease of applying wipe on poly and the less nasty factor of water based made my life easier and the projects more enjoyable. So when I asked about what to apply for my chair and a GF product was suggested I went with GF Exterior 450.
Jay
I sanded all parts built the frame up of my chair then disassembled the chair removing all slats then finished with 3 coats of GF 450 sanding between coats. I then reattached the slats. It turned out nicely and I was really proud and happy to own this chair. The chair was left outside in Southern California 2 miles from the beach under a pergola, so it received filtered sunlight and only partial part of the day. Within 6 months the sloped and flat surfaces stated looking bad, missing patches of finish with dirty or molding wood beneath. This got to the point that within a year the piece was no longer a show piece of my work but just a comfy chair. Since the back of the chair not facing the sun still looks nice I am going to speculate the failure mode of GF 450 is failure of UV protection.
I am going to agree with John on this one. A penetrating oil is probably the best way to go. It will require a yearly application but it will be way easier than stripping and re-applying a failed finish or a good finish that's worn out.
RE: Finishing Outdoor Cedar Table - cme4dk - 03-25-2018
(03-25-2018, 10:19 AM)photobug Wrote: I love woodworking but hate finishing. After discovering General Finishes years ago I hated finishing less. At that time most of my project were for my brewing hobby, so moisture was a factor even though they were indoor projects. The ease of applying wipe on poly and the less nasty factor of water based made my life easier and the projects more enjoyable. So when I asked about what to apply for my chair and a GF product was suggested I went with GF Exterior 450.You guys are great. Does the GF Outdoor Oil fit into your category of penetrating oils?
I sanded all parts built the frame up of my chair then disassembled the chair removing all slats then finished with 3 coats of GF 450 sanding between coats. I then reattached the slats. It turned out nicely and I was really proud and happy to own this chair. The chair was left outside in Southern California 2 miles from the beach under a pergola, so it received filtered sunlight and only partial part of the day. Within 6 months the sloped and flat surfaces stated looking bad, missing patches of finish with dirty or molding wood beneath. This got to the point that within a year the piece was no longer a show piece of my work but just a comfy chair. Since the back of the chair not facing the sun still looks nice I am going to speculate the failure mode of GF 450 is failure of UV protection.
I am going to agree with John on this one. A penetrating oil is probably the best way to go. It will require a yearly application but it will be way easier than stripping and re-applying a failed finish or a good finish that's worn out.
Jay
RE: Finishing Outdoor Cedar Table - jteneyck - 03-25-2018
(03-25-2018, 02:02 PM)cme4dk Wrote: You guys are great. Does the GF Outdoor Oil fit into your category of penetrating oils?
Jay
Yes, but the Flood CWF-UV you used before is likely as good or better, and costs a lot less.
John
RE: Finishing Outdoor Cedar Table - MHensler - 03-27-2018
Thanks for the insight everyone. I suppose I’m going to have to approach this with the idea that it may just be something I have to upkeep more often. The good news is that when we build our new home, most likely it will be able to be put under roof during the summer for use as to opposed to out in the elements like it is here at this house.