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RE: Rough Cut lawsuit - Stwood_ - 08-06-2018

Well?? ...................


RE: Rough Cut lawsuit - adamcherubini - 08-06-2018

Just watched the first episode.  The host says at the end, "I'm.... and this is Rough Cut". So the show is called "Rough Cut", not "Rough Cut by Fine Woodworking". Or at least the host seems to think so.  If I hadn't read this thread, I would have thought this was Tommy Mac's show and he merely stepped aside as host.

I enjoyed the show and was a fan of Norm's show, but I don't understand the point of these shows or their target audience.  All the special jigs, and special set ups seem like they are teaching us how to become furniture factories.  That's an outstanding way to make 50 of those tables. But if you are making one, seems to me that investment of all those jigs and things doesn't pay off.

Last time I tapered a leg, I used a hatchet.  I finished with a hand plane. How many more times will he use that hall table leg tapering jig? I use my hatchet all the time.

Liked the mixture of hand tools though. Norm didn't do that often.


RE: Rough Cut lawsuit - Mark A Smith - 08-06-2018

(08-06-2018, 12:38 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: Just watched the first episode.  The host says at the end, "I'm.... and this is Rough Cut". So the show is called "Rough Cut", not "Rough Cut by Fine Woodworking". Or at least the host seems to think so.  If I hadn't read this thread, I would have thought this was Tommy Mac's show and he merely stepped aside as host.

I enjoyed the show and was a fan of Norm's show, but I don't understand the point of these shows or their target audience.  All the special jigs, and special set ups seem like they are teaching us how to become furniture factories.  That's an outstanding way to make 50 of those tables. But if you are making one, seems to me that investment of all those jigs and things doesn't pay off.

Last time I tapered a leg, I used a hatchet.  I finished with a hand plane. How many more times will he use that hall table leg tapering jig? I use my hatchet all the time.

Liked the mixture of hand tools though. Norm didn't do that often.

I guess if you were making a set of chairs then jigs for the legs would be used enough to justify the time to create them. There are no doubt other examples, but your point is well made.

I wonder how many people will make anything this show, or the original rough cut demonstrated? I think in all of Tommy Mac's years I saw one or two items I might even be interested in. I suppose that was the genius of NYW. Norm built stuff many of us could see ourselves using, from a shed to a bow front chest of drawers.


RE: Rough Cut lawsuit - adamcherubini - 08-06-2018

(08-06-2018, 12:57 PM)Mark A Smith Wrote: I guess if you were making a set of chairs then jigs for the legs would be used enough to justify the time to create them. There are no doubt other examples, but your point is well made.

I wonder how many people will make anything this show, or the original rough cut demonstrated? I think in all of Tommy Mac's years I saw one or two items I might even be interested in. I suppose that was the genius of NYW. Norm built stuff many of us could see ourselves using, from a shed to a bow front chest of drawers.

I guess we hope that the techniques and tools demonstrated are what folks will actually find useful. 

Just thinking about it, in the episode I watched, he did some mortise and tenon joints.  No discussion on how to set up the mortiser, where the mortises belonged relative to the apron thickness. He also didn't put a shoulder on the bottom of the apron's tenons.  That means, when the aprons shrink, you will see that little bit of exposed mortise.  I think that's a rooky mistake. I would have mentioned those for exactly the reason you state.

PVA glue only develops decent properties under compression.  Almost impossible to generate that pressure (250psi) inside a mortise.  So the pegs really hold M&T joints and his weren't draw bored.

I liked the bevel under the top tho. That's a nice detail I typically do as well, so that's a tip worth watching for. 

I think its hard to make a point or have a message for a group of different woodworkers, WHILE you are building something.  I get lost in whatever my hands are doing. I was never really filmed, just the live video, but what little I did gave me respect and appreciation for the people who can talk and cook or work wood at the same time on TV. Very hard.

Hate to bring him up again cause I sound like a broken record, but that's just one more reason to respect Roy Underhill. I always felt he was having 2 discussions simultaneously while he was building- the discussion about the project and the other one about what he really wanted to talk about. That's like the guy spinning plates on Ed Sullivan.

Not knowing the outcome of this lawsuit, I guess I should change the name of the new TV show I've been pitching to my local PBS called "The Wood (Always) Right Shop".  (That's my way of apologizing to Tom McLaughlin for sounding like a know it all. Sorry Tom if you are reading.  I enjoyed the show. I liked your pocket screw pockets.


RE: Rough Cut lawsuit - handi - 08-06-2018

(08-06-2018, 12:38 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: Just watched the first episode.  The host says at the end, "I'm.... and this is Rough Cut". So the show is called "Rough Cut", not "Rough Cut by Fine Woodworking". Or at least the host seems to think so.  If I hadn't read this thread, I would have thought this was Tommy Mac's show and he merely stepped aside as host.

I enjoyed the show and was a fan of Norm's show, but I don't understand the point of these shows or their target audience.  All the special jigs, and special set ups seem like they are teaching us how to become furniture factories.  That's an outstanding way to make 50 of those tables. But if you are making one, seems to me that investment of all those jigs and things doesn't pay off.

Last time I tapered a leg, I used a hatchet.  I finished with a hand plane. How many more times will he use that hall table leg tapering jig? I use my hatchet all the time.

Liked the mixture of hand tools though. Norm didn't do that often.

I was a professional jig and fixture maker for decades in my career. The FIRST decision when making a jig is whether or not to actually make one! Typically, a one-off piece needs no jig, unless some detail needs precision. I am building a new version of my Folding Router Table. Only making one, but the holes for pivots and lock knobs must meet exactly across different parts. A well designed drill jig can be easy to make and ensure accuracy. 

I use a taper jig quite a lot as I build furniture. But I use a jig that can be precisely set for various angles, so one jig can make many different tapers. It is repeatable, so I can make a new leg a year later that exactly matches today’s. Try that with your axe! Lol

And when I built my set of 6 dining chairs, I built a template sled to shape the twelve bent back legs that I would need. Vastly faster and easier than trying to cut and shape twelve legs to be the same by hand. 

On the other hand, I own a Dovetail jig I almost never use. If I need to make one or two drawers for a piece, I can hand cut those in the time it would take just to set up the jig. But if I decide to build an apothecary chest, the set up time of the jig is well spent.


RE: Rough Cut lawsuit - Handplanesandmore - 08-07-2018

Norm did not have much hand tool content is that he himself is not a user of hand tools with expertise, and that hand tools have become more trendy among hobbyists since late 90s or a little earlier.

So far, the new Rough Cuts has more interesting projects, and the guests are more like guests than side kicks seen in the previous seasons. The half-hour format limits the amount of details that can go into each episode. 60 mins or at least 45 mins should go into each show.

Simon


RE: Rough Cut lawsuit - handi - 08-07-2018

(08-07-2018, 01:27 AM)Handplanesandmore Wrote: Norm did not have much hand tool content is that he himself is not a user of hand tools with expertise, and that hand tools have become more trendy among hobbyists since late 90s or a little earlier.

So far, the new Rough Cuts has more interesting projects, and the guests are more like guests than side kicks seen in the previous seasons. The half-hour format limits the amount of details that can go into each episode.  60 mins or at least 45 mins should go into each show.

Simon

This is why I did all of season 1 as two episodes per project. And even then, I often had to leave things on the cutting room floor to keep to only an hour.

In Season 2, I will be doing two smaller projects in one episode as a test, but most projects simply require more time.


RE: Rough Cut lawsuit - AgGEM - 08-07-2018

(08-07-2018, 01:27 AM)Handplanesandmore Wrote: Norm did not have much hand tool content is that he himself is not a user of hand tools with expertise, and that hand tools have become more trendy among hobbyists since late 90s or a little earlier.

So far, the new Rough Cuts has more interesting projects, and the guests are more like guests than side kicks seen in the previous seasons. The half-hour format limits the amount of details that can go into each episode.  60 mins or at least 45 mins should go into each show.

Simon

Norm was good at packing lots of clear data into a small amount of time and making it all seem so doable. That and good director / editing, I would guess.
Tommy Mac was pretty good at that too.


RE: Rough Cut lawsuit - Handplanesandmore - 08-07-2018

(08-07-2018, 08:53 PM)AgGEM Wrote: Norm was good at packing lots of clear data into a small amount of time and making it all seem so doable. That and good director / editing, I would guess.

Certainly true.

Norm was also able to strike a connection with his audience. Some argue that his woodworking (carpentry?) skills were not top-notched, but I would argue that he more than made up that with his presentation and instructional skills.

In the same way, Paul Sellers is able to demonstrate useful hand skills effectively that others before him could not. For example, Rob Cosman is excellent in sawing, but how many could saw like him after watching his famous dovetail videos? If Paul could limit his hourly presentations to half an hour, he could be more concise as Norm was. So having more time in a video presentation is not necessarily a good thing.

Simon


RE: Rough Cut lawsuit - AHill - 08-08-2018

I thought Norm Abrams and David Marks were the two best teachers for a woodworking show.  Tommy Mac, not so much.  He would sometimes gloss over things, making me very confused.  For example, in the episode where he made a table that had an integral leaf, I was more confused about how it worked after he explained it than before.  I think maybe that's not his fault, but the producers and/or editors fault.