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Dual drum sander or single drum such as 25/50? - ®smpr_fi_mac® - 09-15-2022
(edited title to reflect that I'm looking more at tool type than brand)
I'm doing some planning for the year or so ahead. As I start to sell more charcuterie and cutting boards, time spent sanding is going to become a problem; it's currently the biggest time sink in building them. A year or so out because I need to know that I'm selling them at a pace regularly enough to ensure the ROI on the tools purchased makes sense. I figure it'll take me that long to get the to point that I will benefit from a drum sander. Does that make sense?
Having said that, if the revenue stream works out, price *really* isn't a problem in this range ($2.5-4.5k) as the business will pay for it.
I'm wondering whether I should get a 16/32 or 25/50 open sander to run 80 grit, as sanding off the planer takes the most time. With a ROS, I can go through 120, 180, and (if needed) 220 in about 6 minutes per board.
Or should I get a 24" dual drum to run 80 and 120 and kill two birds with one stone?
I *know* that a drum sander is in my future. I'm just not sure which one route would be the best to take. Heck, if it works out the way I hope, I'll want one of both--a dual drum and a single drum to make it even faster.
Your thoughts on it?
RE: Grizzly dual drum or SuperMax single? - paul2004 - 09-15-2022
Ok, I have owned both a Delta single drum sander and a Supermax dual drum. The Supermax is one of the older ones, it has a bigger motor, etc.
I am not going to talk about whether Griz and Supermax are the equivalent in quality or not.. that's a controversial subject and I have not used either of the specific models you are talking about.
So for the sake of discussion, assume they are equal in quality.
The dual drum sander gets it done in half the time IF.. and this is a big if. you can feed it through at the same rate as the single drum sander.
I have experimented with lots of grit combinations on the dual drum sander.
I have settled (for now ) on putting 80 grit on both drums, it just goes so much faster. You can also have the second drum take a bigger "bite" on a coarser grit.
If you do 80/120, the benefit there is that the scratches will not be as deep, the 120 will help clean up the scratches by the 80, but it's making it flatter slower.
And then when you feed the board again, the 80 will scratch up what the previous 120 just cleaned up.
So in the end, you still have to spend about the same amount of time with the ROS if you use 120 on the second drum. That's why I do both drums with the same grit.
Another big hint, no matter what sander you use -- when it's flat or down to the thickness you want.. run the panel through 3 or 4 more times without changing the "depth of cut".. this will help smooth out the scratches. Most of the time, no matter how careful we are, we are taking a more aggressive bite than we should. So passing it through those extra 3-4 times at the end really helps reduce the time you spend with the ROS.. even at 80/80, if you run it through and still hear the sandpaper making contact and removing wood.. it's smoothing it out more for you.
RE: Grizzly dual drum or SuperMax single? - ®smpr_fi_mac® - 09-15-2022
I didn't even know that SuperMax made a dual drum sander. I'll check that out.
I don't envision this to be used as a thickness sander. It is to be bought solely as sander between the planer and the ROS. Sure, I will likely use it as a thickness sander on some projects, but the main goal is for sanding charcuterie and cutting boards.
Thanks for your input!
RE: Grizzly dual drum or SuperMax single? - paul2004 - 09-15-2022
ok, I misread your original post.
To be honest, if you want a drum sander to save time with the ROS, the answer might be to get a premium ROS (if you don't already have one)
I used to take wood off the planer, run it through the drum sander on 120/150 or 150/180 grit (I tried both). I did not scientifically measure the time it took or saved, but I no longer do that.
I have a Mirka Ceros ROS now, it goes a lot faster than my previous ROS. Some people like the festools, I tried them, I like the Mirka better, but I am not insulting anyone that likes the festools.. It's just my personal preference.
For me, it was not worth the hassle to roll out the drum sander, feed it in really slow at the finer grits. If it's a long board you have to slightly lift the board on the outfeed to prevent snipe. Probably not an issue for you with cutting boards.
Again, my personal preference, but I would rather ROS with the Mirka than have the intermediate step of the drum sander.
The first pass of the ROS is still going to take some time to get the scratches from the drum sander out.
In other words, the drum sander might save time (I did not measure), but I only use mine as a thickness sander now.
If I had a bigger shop and had the drum sander permanently connected to dust collection, and more room to walk around, I would probably use the drum sander more -- so that's another thing to think about.. how much floor space is this going to take up.. My drum sander has 37 inches wide drums on it, which is great when I need it (also for feeding two pieces at a time in), but it also means it needs to be parked in a corner when not in use.
RE: Dual drum sander or single drum such as 25/50? - Tony Z - 09-16-2022
I own both a Performax 16/32 and General International dual drum 25” sander. Comments posted are appropriate, so I won’t belabor either. The dual drum is a workhorse, but nothing through it is finish ready. The Performax (pre Jet) is much lighter duty machine, but between the two, I would keep it over the General.
I would look very closely at the Performax/Jet or Supermax, open end sanders. If considering a closed end dual drum, I would save a bit more and find something like a Timesaver.
RE: Dual drum sander or single drum such as 25/50? - ®smpr_fi_mac® - 09-16-2022
Tony,
When you say it's more work horse than finish machine, what do you mean by that? I fully expect to need to use a ROS after the board passes through, especially since it would be 80 and 120, which would require me to hit it with 150/180 with the ROS after.
Paul,
I'm also looking at high performance a ROS, too. My current tool is a Bosch ROS65VC. I love it, but know there's better. It's better than just about anything in a big box store, but still isn't as good as the Festool and Mirka and the like.
RE: Dual drum sander or single drum such as 25/50? - fredhargis - 09-16-2022
Brad I only use 120 grit in my Supermax 19/38 (and the Delta 18/36 that preceeded it) and for me it was still more work to sand the wood smooth (180) after the drum sander than it was after passing through my planer. I use the DS for tricky grain and such, otherwise it doesn't do all that much...just my experience. If i did a lot of end grain cutting boards it would see a lot more work, I'm sure.
RE: Dual drum sander or single drum such as 25/50? - Tony Z - 09-16-2022
(09-16-2022, 10:48 AM)®smpr_fi_mac® Wrote: Tony,
When you say it's more work horse than finish machine, what do you mean by that? I fully expect to need to use a ROS after the board passes through, especially since it would be 80 and 120, which would require me to hit it with 150/180 with the ROS after.
Paul,
I'm also looking at high performance a ROS, too. My current tool is a Bosch ROS65VC. I love it, but know there's better. It's better than just about anything in a big box store, but still isn't as good as the Festool and Mirka and the like.
As Fred Hargis posted, there is still much finishing needed. I had 80 and 120 grit in mine and I still need 150/180 and 220. Also as Fred said, the planer to sanding, on decent grain worked better. The drum sander helps a lot on leveling glue ups.
RE: Dual drum sander or single drum such as 25/50? - iclark - 09-16-2022
Based on what I am reading above, the higher priority for sanding end-grain cutting boards is for the drum to be wide enough to feed the board through lengthwise, widthwise, and on a full diagonal.
In other words, you can think of the scratches left by a drum sander in a similar way that you think about scratches from a belt sander: the sanding has to be done in multiple directions if you want to remove scratches.
It might be worth a different thread to discuss upgrades for your planer that could reduce your need for sanding.
If you get chip-out on the edges from the planer, consider a support board with sacrificial edge board(s) (functionally like a zero-clearance insert for a TS or iBox).
RE: Dual drum sander or single drum such as 25/50? - packerguy® - 09-16-2022
I bought a delta 31-481 a few years ago and for production work and cutting down on finish sanding its a home run.
I run 100/120G on it. Does a fast and efficient job removing milling marks. Good luck finding that specific model though. Grizzly sells a few styles, but didn't seem as robust as the delta. There are a few others if you look around baliegh, powermatic, etc
I had a 16/32 and it was painfully slow (for production) and I could never keep the drum and belt parallel (probably cause I beat the hell out of it running 500-600 BF a month through it)
In your garage though, it will take up a TON of space. Not sure what finish sander your running, but it might make more sense getting a mirka or one of the festool ets ec sanders. Those alone cut sanding time in half for me years ago, and now I use 3m Xtract discs and my sanding is 1/3rd of what it was 5 years ago.