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Glue creep question - fredhargis - 08-03-2024
I've always used Weldwood urea formaldehyde (powdered) glue on my table tops to avoid issues with glue creep. It's not made anymore and the only other glue I have on hand is Titebond 2. Is there another choice. I know Unibond doesn't creep but don't want to buy a gallon. I'm considering Ultra Cat from Veneer supplies, which is pretty much the same as the Weldwood product. But are there any other choices of which I'm not aware?
RE: Glue creep question - CStan - 08-03-2024
(08-03-2024, 11:14 AM)fredhargis Wrote: I've always used Weldwood urea formaldehyde (powdered) glue on my table tops to avoid issues with glue creep. It's not made anymore and the only other glue I have on hand is Titebond 2. Is there another choice. I know Unibond doesn't creep but don't want to buy a gallon. I'm considering Ultra Cat from Veneer supplies, which is pretty much the same as the Weldwood product. But are there any other choices of which I'm not aware?
https://www.amazon.com/Cascamite-Powdered-Resin-Wood-1-5kg/dp/B0001OZI8Y?th=1
Share an order with another woodworker. Hard to find powdered resin glue in small quantities, though it is available in small quantities in the U.K.
RE: Glue creep question - fredhargis - 08-03-2024
I did see that one but it appeared to be an European thing. The Ultra Cat from Veneer supplies would be a lot less expensive, but it's good to have this one on the list. Thanks!
RE: Glue creep question - FrankAtl - 08-03-2024
I always liked the weldwood product too, Fred. I was sad when it was discontinued.
RE: Glue creep question - jteneyck - 08-03-2024
(08-03-2024, 11:14 AM)fredhargis Wrote: I've always used Weldwood urea formaldehyde (powdered) glue on my table tops to avoid issues with glue creep. It's not made anymore and the only other glue I have on hand is Titebond 2. Is there another choice. I know Unibond doesn't creep but don't want to buy a gallon. I'm considering Ultra Cat from Veneer supplies, which is pretty much the same as the Weldwood product. But are there any other choices of which I'm not aware?
I, too, used to use Weldwood PRG. Great stuff and too bad they stopped making it. I switched to Unibond 800. Great stuff, too, as is epoxy; can't go wrong with any of them. That said, I have been using TB II for more than 2 years now with zero issues on both veneer work and to make my own plywood. The dining table I recently showed was made with TB II. IMO, TB Original and TB II have more than adequate creep strength for any flat work and for curved work, too, if the laminations are thin enough to be easily bent.
I would not use TB III for any of this, but many do without issue.
I also should mention that polyurethane glue, like Gorilla Glue or TB's polyurethane, are terrific for veneer and lamination work. Excellent properties, on par with the urea glues and epoxy.
John
RE: Glue creep question - Willyou - 08-03-2024
You can still get Cascamite plastic resin glue. I believe it is basicly the same as Weldwood except it is white instead of brown. it's made in the UK, I think.
Also, I have had good results using Tightbond Cold Press glue. You can get it in 32 oz bottles from Amazon and other suppliers. I've never had any issues with creep with it.
RE: Glue creep question - jteneyck - 08-03-2024
(08-03-2024, 04:16 PM)Willyou Wrote: You can still get Cascamite plastic resin glue. I believe it is basicly the same as Weldwood except it is white instead of brown. it's made in the UK, I think.
Also, I have had good results using Tightbond Cold Press glue. You can get it in 32 oz bottles from Amazon and other suppliers. I've never had any issues with creep with it.
Besides the open time, the data look poor for TB Cold Press glue.
![[Image: AP1GczMIEEzAne7hmggJyXs3rqyZthkighJlEKgE...authuser=1]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczMIEEzAne7hmggJyXs3rqyZthkighJlEKgESS2XVMeQGV9ZGwTP84Zi24paqckfwyu9XJpLvVMuJohMxMQao4C-IDJ6dWF6ere-83yhcKNcohv7XeJwTh_Lt0Sv0f5GIXpbtveOYZwRCJgUQMpwgCHiGQ=w1460-h315-s-no?authuser=1)
RE: Glue creep question - fredhargis - 08-04-2024
Thanks guys, great input. Mot sure at this point what I'll do but this is all good info.
RE: Glue creep question - Willyou - 08-04-2024
(08-03-2024, 06:43 PM)jteneyck Wrote: Besides the open time, the data look poor for TB Cold Press glue.
I'm not knocking the chart information. It looks helpful. However, it would be nice to know who did the testing and how the testing was done. Also, for me, some explaining would be helpful:
What is important about overnight strength? I don't care as long as the veneer stays put until the glue fully cures.
% wood failure; I guess that means at the point of failure, how much is glue failure and how much is wood? Those numbers are surprising for all types/brands. Why aren't those on the right end of the scale included?
Room Temp Strength: I assume that is when the glue is fully cured. That doesn't look too bad for Cold Press. How much strength is needed for veneer?
Creep: The OP was asking specifically about this, but there is little information in the chart.
Again. I have used Cold Press with good results, but I have never tried to make it fail. I built a cherry chest of drawers with veneered drawer fronts 20 years ago using Cold Press. It is still in daily use today with no veneer failure. Although, I can't say what might happen under test conditions.
This does make me wonder, however, why Cold Press exists if the other glues are so much better (are they really). It is sold as a veneer glue. Why?
RE: Glue creep question - jteneyck - 08-04-2024
(08-04-2024, 11:04 AM)Willyou Wrote: I'm not knocking the chart information. It looks helpful. However, it would be nice to know who did the testing and how the testing was done. Also, for me, some explaining would be helpful:
What is important about overnight strength? I don't care as long as the veneer stays put until the glue fully cures.
% wood failure; I guess that means at the point of failure, how much is glue failure and how much is wood? Those numbers are surprising for all types/brands. Why aren't those on the right end of the scale included?
Room Temp Strength: I assume that is when the glue is fully cured. That doesn't look too bad for Cold Press. How much strength is needed for veneer?
Creep: The OP was asking specifically about this, but there is little information in the chart.
Again. I have used Cold Press with good results, but I have never tried to make it fail. I built a cherry chest of drawers with veneered drawer fronts 20 years ago using Cold Press. It is still in daily use today with no veneer failure. Although, I can't say what might happen under test conditions.
This does make me wonder, however, why Cold Press exists if the other glues are so much better (are they really). It is sold as a veneer glue. Why?
I compiled the data from what each manufacturer published. Some don't publish much data. Titebond describes the test methods they use, IIRC. I can't remember about the others, and while most testing follows some ASTM, DIN, etc standard, I don't know if all of them used the same methods.
% wood failure = the % of the glued area where the glue did NOT fail; rather, the wood itself on one side or the other pulled away. The stuff they add to cold press glue to prevent bleed thru must prevent it from wetting/bonding to the wood fibers, too.
150F Overnight Wood strength = the strength after sitting overnight at 150F. This shows how well the glue withstands temperature, such as an exterior door exposed to direct sunlight. I've measured almost 200F between a storm door and dark painted wooden door behind it. Note how the PU and Hide Glue performed. I also use this data as an indication of creep strength. Creep is directly proportional to the elasticity of the glue. The high temp data just makes it easier to see the creep than investing the time to do long term testing at room temperature.
And why is creep strength even important? It probably isn't if you don't do bent laminations, and you only use commercial veneer for flat veneering work. The stress that commercial veneer can exert is very low unless maybe you use the thicker grades on a curved surface. But it's very important if you are making bent laminations or you use shop sawn veneer, even for flat work. I used Joe Woodworker's Better Bond, I think it's called, cold press veneer for a small tabletop, made from seamed shop sawn veneer. It was fine for a couple of weeks, but then every seam curled open. I remade the top with PRG and it's been fine for more than 10 years. I called Joe W. about the problem, to which he said Better Bond was not recommended for shop sawn veneer. That bit of info was not on his website prior to my conversation with him, but now is.
John