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+-- Thread: Blotch Control (/showthread.php?tid=7377136)
Blotch Control - alexh1 - 11-02-2024
Hi, refinishing a dining table second time. I refinished it once before and when I was stripping the original finish I noticed a sticky residue beneath finish which was not removed by the stripper. I later realized it was likely the manufacturers blotch control (subsequently removed by sanding before restaining) because when I tried to dye stain the bare wood with Transtint it blotched like crazy. I then used Charled Neil blotch control and that worked fairly well.
So I currently had some 5 year old Charles Neil blotch control and it did not seem to go on smoothly - like it wanted to dry very fast. I went ahead with transtint stain (water) anyhow but the results are pretty bad. I think the product was too old. So Charles Neil is no longer with us and his product is not available.
I saw some extensive testing by the Wood Whisperer on a DIY formula of glue and water based finish which seems to outperform all other methods.
Just wondering if anyone has tried this. This table is a really nice vintage design but no idea why they would use a severely blotch prone wood.
Also part of the problem is that I dont have any test scrap in the same species and I'm unable to identify the species.
I could post a picture (currently stained but could sand it off), its a veneer and the unique property of this wood (for me) is that the grain is jet black and looks like oak grain. Also the wood color is very light, I would say blonde so staining is a must but the deep color change is a challenge. I have samples of several domestic hardwoods but none have black grain. In any case I could use one of the table leaves as a test board.
Luckily the veneer is really thick on these vintage tables, about 1/8". Whenever I go to someone's house for dinner with a modern table the veneer is always shot - what a waste.
Thanks for any tips.
P.S. My finishing schedule was/is sand to 220, apply blotch control as directed, apply transtint in water (cannot use solvent based dye with the blotch control) and topcoat with NC lacquer.
RE: Blotch Control - jteneyck - 11-03-2024
(11-02-2024, 07:59 PM)alexh1 Wrote: Hi, refinishing a dining table second time. I refinished it once before and when I was stripping the original finish I noticed a sticky residue beneath finish which was not removed by the stripper. I later realized it was likely the manufacturers blotch control (subsequently removed by sanding before restaining) because when I tried to dye stain the bare wood with Transtint it blotched like crazy. I then used Charled Neil blotch control and that worked fairly well.
So I currently had some 5 year old Charles Neil blotch control and it did not seem to go on smoothly - like it wanted to dry very fast. I went ahead with transtint stain (water) anyhow but the results are pretty bad. I think the product was too old. So Charles Neil is no longer with us and his product is not available.
I saw some extensive testing by the Wood Whisperer on a DIY formula of glue and water based finish which seems to outperform all other methods.
Just wondering if anyone has tried this. This table is a really nice vintage design but no idea why they would use a severely blotch prone wood.
Also part of the problem is that I dont have any test scrap in the same species and I'm unable to identify the species.
I could post a picture (currently stained but could sand it off), its a veneer and the unique property of this wood (for me) is that the grain is jet black and looks like oak grain. Also the wood color is very light, I would say blonde so staining is a must but the deep color change is a challenge. I have samples of several domestic hardwoods but none have black grain. In any case I could use one of the table leaves as a test board.
Luckily the veneer is really thick on these vintage tables, about 1/8". Whenever I go to someone's house for dinner with a modern table the veneer is always shot - what a waste.
Thanks for any tips.
P.S. My finishing schedule was/is sand to 220, apply blotch control as directed, apply transtint in water (cannot use solvent based dye with the blotch control) and topcoat with NC lacquer.
English walnut, perhaps:
![[Image: AP1GczPhejK8JEunc_culkdxphjD3Umppy_uQRIm...authuser=1]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczPhejK8JEunc_culkdxphjD3Umppy_uQRImjzXdt-VarDef-F3t71240Ab28PQAEEVYF767bi8UeUAfv02ljjEPC_aqw2tV1IUbUDgKTlqt6si8yjomILHZXyZx2HgLxo-Fq-x4IhZPUP1BxX5xX6VjaA=w1565-h880-s-no?authuser=1)
In any case, the manufacturer didn't care if the wood was prone to blotching because they most likely sprayed on whatever dyes or toners were used to give the color they wanted, and that's how I suggest you go about it. Dyes won't blotch if you spray on no more than the wood can instantly absorb. Toners completely eliminate the possibility. I sprayed this English walnut with Transtint in water:
![[Image: AP1GczOiNGuQvKV5nvpQi9pnmX9s5B19YdxmYYR8...authuser=1]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczOiNGuQvKV5nvpQi9pnmX9s5B19YdxmYYR8MOox54Cz42IeC6LYFz1tgMxDHpCJ0YMGF4XHWCgl8NUQ_jtgsvNKCVDKuZzzbbGjKanRdzqlBbYzOLVjHoZR93gCN1IzxLcfanVJo0J5zkMw08QEfXtjjg=w1460-h821-s-no?authuser=1)
After drying:
![[Image: AP1GczOt-3p3OnSNmfg5KYr3aiE1Ib6FjPi54Hzs...authuser=1]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczOt-3p3OnSNmfg5KYr3aiE1Ib6FjPi54Hzst9JqLQL9Dp3NT_vLPyjV90_9rW4qlvu9TyPzZKnfgzcpKS8dwGdFTSkultQC1cWt83MHb8WXqTDq4ndzXZRiBHPCHyqU7iKgFQSkRC5yflemqOtWw0UMzA=w1460-h821-s-no?authuser=1)
After a coat of Sealcoat shellac:
![[Image: AP1GczNhjSiUaNfCqqgyWOKllPkDAP81sDUU_V1B...authuser=1]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczNhjSiUaNfCqqgyWOKllPkDAP81sDUU_V1BUCZOvxJXOodc7CNui0oggq6V5Le29Ks06o6VCTfBlCNiLhM20_QVQ2Y8C2bMUZvrqA-d1kgrVt2qRXul-dCpl7oWtuDAXZiMWEnfcfZK_iQXn1EVSsHeNA=w1460-h821-s-no?authuser=1)
And after finishing:
![[Image: AP1GczP5oEbgafAfSgBO2fxk4yKZauLpmK8SOSlD...authuser=1]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczP5oEbgafAfSgBO2fxk4yKZauLpmK8SOSlDeibDVtrpn-d_w-8xuQ-hYVyUHlKx1DrbOh_MotFqMAQjTZD84UwbouwDfIlArrgf2QVQ9gnl9Zo8hpYuvHGZpnVu_mBCFJUU1C0xp7eBdLv-ITg_Guk1zw=w1460-h821-s-no?authuser=1)
You should be able to evaluate options on the bottom of the tabletop, or on the bottom of the leaves if that's not possible, assuming the same veneer was used.
John
John
RE: Blotch Control - Gary G™ - 11-06-2024
Dewaxed shellac is a traditional blotch control.
RE: Blotch Control - alexh1 - 11-10-2024
Thanks, The glue size + finish did not work well at all likely because it did not soak into hardwood as well, it kind of sat on top in many places. It was only tested on pine AFIK.
I'm also doing a fairly drastic color change so spraying may cause a toning effect which I don't like. As I recall the original finish had a toned effect.
I resanded and will just do my best with the transtint, usually transtint works fairly well even on difficult woods and I was wrong about the veneer, its the typical 1/32 thick or so I saw from the back side so I need to end the retries. The veneer has a backer to provide a thick edge (so exposed edge wont be damaged) which makes it look thicker.
I really like this table, the scalloped edge (or whatever you call it) and the curved apron is solid wood and carved. The legs also are very elegant cabriolet. It was made by Drexel, they used to make some really nice furniture. The solid parts stained with no real issue.
I also thought i would ask if one were to rebuild this top, is it possible for the advanced hobbyist wood worker assuming solid wood? I'm pretty sure it has breadboard ends made from poplar but of course I would match the top. Just thinking out loud, I would make a template of the table shape, then make the table from solid wood running the end and sides a bit long/wide. Route the end semi circle and curved sides (the table size minus breadboard, I think it may be an ellipse) using a template, then similarly route the matching curve out the breadboard material, gluing the breadboard parts onto the main table using splines. Probably easiest if breadboard boards glued up into rough shape before routing the curved shape so breadboard joints are tight. Finally, route the scalloped edge using the outer edge template of course first square edge then profile. One difficulty I foresee is that you would need 2 curved templates, one for the inner table body and another smaller by the router bit width for the breadboard such that breadboard fits perfectly.
I'm having a real hard time identifying the wood, I compared the grain to some oak furniture I have and the grain pattern seems to be a dead ringer but never seen black grain like that on Oak although perhaps just depends on location and growing conditions. Pictures show sanded veneer.