Deck steps - plans

[FS7]

My wife and I are getting a patio and a fence and while I suggested doing the patio ourselves (I am young enough to not mind the back-breaking labor), she wants a concrete patio and most certainly does not want to help. I had no interest whatsoever in doing a fence and don't even want it, but whatever.

We asked about deck steps, as having a patio and a fenced in yard will make it much more attractive to use both levels as well as letting the dog out without worrying. Great. That said, the estimates we got were rather insane. I can do deck steps, but I am not sure of a few things, mainly the top landing.

We have a rather basic deck, built by the builder. It's a 12' x20' ledger board deck. I intend to build the steps off a corner that is near the house. Suppose I wish to have a 3'x3' platform there. This is my my main landing, which essentially extends the deck at the top.

There are three posts for the existing deck, approximately 10' from the house (or thereabouts). The other support is the ledger board. If I aim to attach the landing to the deck, is there any clear answer as to how many posts I need? My home's concentric vent termination is on that side, so this pretty much precludes the possibility of going right up to the house. This has the added benefit of removing any hassles with the ledger board and flashing - not because that's difficult, but I can imagine some hassles with extending a ledger board (I'm assuming the existing flashing would need to be replaced or seamed or something, and that makes it easier).

That said, suppose there's a 3'x3' platform about 18 inches away from the house. There are no posts there. Four posts are obviously sufficient, and this makes the steps freestanding, which adds no load to the deck. I could see an argument being made for two posts and a ledger attachment to the deck's existing rim joist, which does add load to the deck. However, I can't imagine this being a problem. Is there an obvious answer?

I understand this may be a county by county issue rather than a strict engineering issue. Just wondering.

[JGrout]

Quote:

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I could see an argument being made for two posts and a ledger attachment to the deck's existing rim joist, which does add load to the deck. However, I can't imagine this being a problem. Is there an obvious answer?

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As long as you can attach railing ( if required) to the existing deck railings this is exactly how I would proceed. In General it is my experience that decks are overbuilt ( mostly) so adding a landing to begin the steps is not an large additional burden on the loading

Joe

[mike4244]

If I understand you correctly you want the 3 x 3 platform to be the same height as the deck. Then you want the stairs to be parallel with the 12'-0" side of the deck so the treads face the house.
I would install one post on the left side to carry the platform and left long to be a post for a handrail.Assuming you need a rail. Usually three or more treads require a handrail.
The platform is fastened to the 12'-0" side of the deck and rests on two posts on the left side.If a handrail is needed you also need another post at the front edge of the bottom tread.I would pour concrete around this post.If you leave 1/2" or more between the platform and the house there is no need for flashing,let the rain or snow drip to the ground.I never attach a deck to the existing structure for this reason.I post up away from the walls to carry the beam.

mike

[FS7]

mike4244 said:

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If I understand you correctly you want the 3 x 3 platform to be the same height as the deck. Then you want the stairs to be parallel with the 12'-0" side of the deck so the treads face the house.
I would install one post on the left side to carry the platform and left long to be a post for a handrail.Assuming you need a rail. Usually three or more treads require a handrail.
The platform is fastened to the 12'-0" side of the deck and rests on two posts on the left side.If a handrail is needed you also need another post at the front edge of the bottom tread.I would pour concrete around this post.If you leave 1/2" or more between the platform and the house there is no need for flashing,let the rain or snow drip to the ground.I never attach a deck to the existing structure for this reason.I post up away from the walls to carry the beam.

mike

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I'll be about 2' away from the house, so no worries there. The guy who did the estimate told me that there is a county code that dictates the distance from a concentric vent termination. He may be right or he may be blowing smoke. I'll check but I had planned on clearance from that vent regardless.

My county (Prince William) dictates pretty severe Bloomberg-like regulations, including lighting and two handrails for all deck stairs. Absurd, perhaps, but it is what it is. That said, how do you make a support post double as a handrail post? I had assumed that all posts would be terminated at the beam, and the handrail posts would be through-bolted to the joists where appropriate. If you use a post as a handrail post as well, while it would be very stable, it would require through-bolting to attach the beams. Engineering-wise, this is no issue (the shear strength on 1/2" bolts is ample), but I think that most counties, mine included, prevent this. Am I missing something?

[crokett™]

The way I build decks to make the railings as strong as possible is pour concrete footings. Posts get anchored to the footings and braced plumb. Beams are bolted to the posts. Deck is framed and decking put on. Upper and lower railings are attached to the posts. Posts are then cut off flush with the top railing if a continuous handrail is used, or whatever height you want for post caps. I haven't found any method of attachment of short railing posts to rim joists that's as strong as a post running all the way from the ground. For this platform you want to attach to the deck, it's a 3x3 platform. The existing rim joist will carry the load. If you are really worried, either sister the rim joist, or add a post to it where you want to add the platform and stairs. The platform doesn't need 4 posts. I'd use joist hangers on the existing rim joist on the deck and just hang one side of the platform off the existing deck. I'd frame 3 sides of the platform on the ground, attach temporary 2x4 legs and set it in the joist hangers. then I'd square it up drop a plumb line at the corners of the platform, dig, pour footings and attach the posts. That's the easiest way to make sure the posts are in the right place and plumb. For the stairs, joist hangers at the top to hang the stringers and posts set in concrete at the bottom for the stringers and hand rails.

[mike4244]

The post is installed long enough to receive the hand rails. Generally 42" above the deck flooring.There are several ways to support the joists.Nail and thru bolt a ledger to the posts.You could make the ledger the same height as the joists and use Simpson joist hangers if you like.Alternately the post can be mortised for the ledger.Not necessary for a small platform like yours.
I like the rails to be fastened to the structural posts instead of too just the perimeter joists.Sometimes the joist is not perfectly vertical and the post will be out of plumb.Then the handrail post needs shimming to look right.If the posts are set in concrete and braced plumb,the rails should look good.
mike

[FS7]

mike4244 said:

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The post is installed long enough to receive the hand rails. Generally 42" above the deck flooring.There are several ways to support the joists.Nail and thru bolt a ledger to the posts.You could make the ledger the same height as the joists and use Simpson joist hangers if you like.Alternately the post can be mortised for the ledger.Not necessary for a small platform like yours.
I like the rails to be fastened to the structural posts instead of too just the perimeter joists.Sometimes the joist is not perfectly vertical and the post will be out of plumb.Then the handrail post needs shimming to look right.If the posts are set in concrete and braced plumb,the rails should look good.
mike

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Simpson hangers was my choice. Cut through the trim board, put the framed joist platform there, and brace with the 2x4s until the posts are in. The 12' side of the deck has a post there for the existing handrail, so I'm going to use that one and install another post probably 42" down or so for the other rail.

The deck fortunately is level and the posts are plumb, so I'm not worried about shimming. I haven't decided on the final design (that depends on the wife), but I do have one major question. These might be code-dependent, but even so the guidance I have doesn't really specify anything.

If I do go with a landing at the top, is this considered a stair landing? I ask because stair landings do not require post and beam construction but rather 4x4 posts with joists through-bolted to the posts. If it's considered decking, then it requires a notched 6x6 and doubled 2x10 beams. I mean, it IS a stair landing, but it's at deck level.

One thing that really bothers me about this were the prices the contractors gave me and the reasons for it. I only asked for an estimate as a curiosity, knowing that my mother had a "high end" job done back in 2004 for $1500 with specs otherwise identical to mine. I live in a more expensive area, though the materials cost is the same. So I have the cost of PA to northern VA to consider as well as whatever rise you see over 12 years. I would guess, on the high end, about 2500 total.

The first guy came in at nearly $5500, and I think misunderstood some of the requirements but was erring on the side of caution. The second guy was a very nice guy personally and we got along well, but his estimate was over $13,000. I was absolutely floored, and I'm glad I didn't speak to him on the phone as I would have been quite upset. Much of what he told me as far as reasoning goes was provably false. Things like that bother me and they certainly give other contractors a bad name.

[GHR]

I take it that the deck is to the second floor.

The landing is part of the deck. I don't know if the comments about the materials are required by code or just suggestions.

I think that $2500 is too low. Labor might run over $3000. But I don't have the plans.

[FS7]

GHR said:

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I take it that the deck is to the second floor.

The landing is part of the deck. I don't know if the comments about the materials are required by code or just suggestions.

I think that $2500 is too low. Labor might run over $3000. But I don't have the plans.

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Pardon me, but how in the world would labor ever get to $3000? I'll assume that the labor rate, on the very high end, is going to be $50. That's roughly two and a half times the salary of the average carpenter. That means that building the steps would require 60 man hours, or roughly three full days for a three man crew.

I would love to see an itemized list of how 60 hours would be spent, and that's with a pretty high labor rate. It could be as much as 120 hours for a calculated labor cost of $3,000.

[woodhead]

$20/hr around here gets you a skilled helper. $30-$35 gets you a mechanic. Add to that WC and liability and disability. Add to that HI license, O& P. $50/hr is not too far away.




Al