Load Center questions

[Mandrake]

JackW's thread got me thinking, becuase I'll be looking to buy a load center for my workshop soon.

1) NEC requires the main breaker to be within 6' 6" from grade. If the panel is upside down, does that 6' 6" then apply to the highest branch breaker?

2) Is there a lower limit to the height a panel can be set in a wall? In other words, can you set it at knee height?

3) Jack mentioned Square D QO. Innerweb has mixed reviews on almost every brand out there. I know I want copper bus bars and a ground I can un-bond from the neutral; but I have no brand knowledge. Looking at 100A main breaker with as many slots as I can get. Any brand recommendations?

[Robert Adams]

1) would have to look that one up. Don't remember. Are you wanting to bottom feed the panel. If you are using aluminum it's way easier than wrestling the bends in the wire to top feed it.

2) never seen a low height requirement. Many of the commercial panels I put in will have the bottom of the can 8" to 10" off the floor to keep the top of the panel under the ceiling height.


I am liking the GE panels for home and shop. Copper buss, neutral bars on both sides or can be split to be a neutral and ground bar. They use a thick breaker not the thin ones. Very similar breaker to other brands. 200 amp panel kit can be had for around $100 with 20 or so breakers.

I haven't used the Q much as we use siemens and eaton for commercial. I prefer the siemens as the panel kits for some of the eatons are a pita.
Honestly all the panels will work fine and last a long time. Just different quirks to all of them.


You will be running 4 wires and a ground from the panel to a ground rod. But you already knew that since you know you don't need a bonded panel. Some panels only have a neutral bar and you have to buy your own ground bar. Bonding is done with a goofy screw that comes with the panel. I tossed a bunch out of my tool box cause we never bond panels as they are fed off a 800 amp disconnect outside. (Heavy person too 4 or 5 man job to mount or skytrack)

[Mandrake]

My reason for asking is that I may be a bit limited on mounting space.

I have a ~2' wide section of wall next to my main entry door. The UG conduit stub up for the feeders is right outside this wall. Being next to the entry door it is the prime spot for light switches.

Ideally, I'd like to mount about 8 switches in that location.

A large panel is about 34" tall. With the 6' 6" height cap, that put the bottom of the panel around 44". The switches would either block the bottom feed or have to be put in a goofy low location.

A second, goofier, option would be to mount the load center low and put the switches a little high. The branch runs through the switches would be easy, but it would be the dumbest looking load center in the state.

The third option would be to spot the load center in an adjacent wall. That would eat up space I had really hoped to reserve for lumber storage.

I'll see if I can get a picture, or import a drawing this weekend.

[Herb G]

A 100 A panel will be much smaller than a full size 200 A panel.
I have a Square D 100 A panel in my basement as a sub panel. It is 19" X 15" x 4". ( H x W x D ).

I don't know about the height requirement off hand, I'd have to check my code handbook. It would be safe to assume the obverse would apply to the breaker height.

There is a minimum height requirement, again I don't know it off hand. But I know you can't mount a panel at knee height. There is a minimum height for mounting them.
I believe it is 66". For some reason that number is in my mind as the height.

Square D QO is a high quality panel. Cutler Hammer is also a good quality panel. GE is junk, plain & simple.
You can weld with their breakers before they trip.

Why do you need as many breakers as you can get?
There really is no need for it.
You won't be running everything at one time anyway.

As for placement of the panel & switches: Switches always mount on the latch side of the door, not the hinges.
I'd mount the panel on the opposite wall, because the likelihood of you having to access it often are pretty slim.

[GHR]

Mandrake said:

---

JackW's thread got me thinking, becuase I'll be looking to buy a load center for my workshop soon.

1) NEC requires the main breaker to be within 6' 6" from grade. If the panel is upside down, does that 6' 6" then apply to the highest branch breaker?

2) Is there a lower limit to the height a panel can be set in a wall? In other words, can you set it at knee height?

---

The height limitation applies to all breakers not just the main. (I think it is 6'7" to the center of the breaker handle or something like that.)

There is no lower limit, but it needs to be accessible with the proper working clearances.

[Robert Adams]

There is nothing wrong with ge breakers and they don't weld together before they trip. Some of the really old thin ge breakers would trip too easily but that was a long rime ago. That was true for the federal pacific though which I have to work on pretty often in the old fast food restaurants.

[Herb G]

Robert Adams said:

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There is nothing wrong with ge breakers and they don't weld together before they trip.

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I never said they would weld together. I said you could weld with them. Meaning, you could weld steel to steel before they trip.


You might like GE panels, but I won't touch them.

[TDKPE]

Is this for an outbuilding? The NEC actually says no more than 6'-7" to the center of the handle, but that applies to all overcurrent devices. I don't know of a lower limit.

---

[/blockquote]
240.24 Location in or on Premises.
(A) Accessibility. Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible
and shall be installed so that the center of the grip
of the operating handle of the switch or circuit breaker,
when in its highest position, is not more than 2.0 m (6 ft
7 in.) above the floor or working platform, unless one of the
following applies:
(1) For busways, as provided in 368.17©.
(2) For supplementary overcurrent protection, as described
in 240.10.
(3) For overcurrent devices, as described in 225.40 and
230.92.
(4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to utilization equipment
that they supply, access shall be permitted to be
by portable means.

---

[/blockquote]
There's also a requirement that panelboards be mounted vertically (240.33), unless circumstances don't allow, but then it has to comply with another section (240.81) that basically says the handles have to be in the 'up' position when 'on', which with a standard 2-column panelboard, would have half of them down for 'on'. I see horizontal panelboards on the Canadian home improvement shows all the time, but that's not normal in the US.

[Mandrake]

This is for an outbuilding, new construction. I'm dryed in and working on interior walls. This fall I will get into electrical in earnest. I will work up specifics on things like my feeder selection and ground rod arrangements; and ask the braintrust to offer opinions. For now, I am just double checking things that might effect my original design basis. Questioning things like panel location now lets me avoid building myself into an unforseen corner.

My desire for the most slots I can get is also based on using overdesign to deal with any loads I might have forgotten and allow for future expansion.

Thanks

[crokett™]

FWIW, based on advice here at the time, I did a load calculation on the 16x24 shop I built to size the feeder. Worst case - every big tool I had running, dust collector, air cleaner, lights, people running around with hand-held power tools, stuff plugged into the shed circuit off the shop panel - I came out with less than 60 A. IMO, a 50A panel would do fine for the average shop, unless you were planning on welding, or other big draw.