Handcut dovetail gauge lines question

[TraditionalToolworks]

It is not really about leaving a finished work to look like a practice piece or half finished.

Hayward was against leaving the layout lines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBDIHVvw...be&t=4m28s

BUT Krenov (see A Cabinetmaker's Notebook) proudly displayed them!

https://www.google.com/search?q=a+cabine...ZJV2yWTKWM:

Simon

I have the Hayward book and it has a lot of great info in it.

Krenov worked the way that works for him, and while I admire his work, that's not how I wold leave a piece like that.

It's not as if Krenov is leaving his arrows or other markings, he just leaves that baseline...whatever floats your boat is what works in this case. For me I know that I typically will handplane the surface which will remove them. What I really wish that I had bought was a hand plane when he was selling them. Derek Cohen bought one and it was marvelous how crude but functional the tool was from my view. It really had character to it. The is the epitome of leaving your marks, IMO, more so that that dovetail joint on the cover of that book.

OTOH, I have done a few projects where I don't finish the wood, like a toolbox that I carry around the yard when I work on timber. I did plane the ends and faces to clean up the joinery, I don't see why I wouldn't do that unless I was just pushed for time...and I can't remember being that pushed for time with my joinery. Obviously a glaring difference between me and Krenov, but I don't care for all of his designs, I like manly type timber designs, and Krenov had some cutesy type fragile kind of modern designs. I usually stick to the basics, I want things clean and solid looking.
 

Greene and Greene is more to my taste. I don't think the Hall Bros. left any layout lines on their work, none that I have seen in person at the Gamble House.

Alan

[Handplanesandmore]

Here is another viewpoint, this time from Sellers who seems to think leaving the lines is a tradition, but that is not what he will do or teach: https://paulsellers.com/2012/08/gauge-li...dovetails/

As for making a machine cut dovetail look like a hand cut joint, I have only seen a few pieces done that way. I don't think that is a popular practice.

Rob Cosman (presumably Alan Peters too?) is in the Hayward's camp. According to some of his FW articles, Christian Becksvoort seems to be leaving the lines. Tage Frid? Need to find his article to tell.

Other noted dovetailers like Ian Kirby, Frank Klausz, David Charlesworth etc. may have their preferences. As Derek notes, leaving the layout lines is neither right nor wrong, but a maker's choice. When David Barron (he uses a magnetic dovetail guide and a Japanese pull saw) took to finish a miniature chest left partially finished by Alan Peters, Barron left the lines on the drawer, which might be a different story if Peters himself cut the joints.

Perhaps some don't stick to one approach and may vary in their practice from piece to piece.

Anyone who handcuts dovetails, please share your thoughts.

Simon

[Scoony]

I try to remove them as much as possible. I am cutting DTs to join two pieces of wood. I am not cutting them for show and tell. I actually prefer to cut half blinds so that end grain is minimized.

Here is a chest I made where I left the base line very faint because it would have taken a lot of planing to completely remove them. I would have preferred to remove it completely


Here is a similar chest where I cut half blind DTs with gives a cleaner appearance on the front.

The base line was removed on the sides, and you have to look close to see the DTs.


Back view


The base line here was left because it was the back and not seen often.  

If I size the drawers correctly, the line remains only because I don't have to plan down too much for a good fit.

[Scoony]

On smaller boxes, the line normally gets planed off completely.

[TraditionalToolworks]

The base line here was left because it was the back and not seen often.

That looks fine to me, as it is on the back. I don't mind that at all, but I wouldn't leave them on the front, I guess I kind of feel like you in that regard!


Good to see your name around, I do still remember your workbench build and really loved how you used the walnut mixed in with the other wood, I don't think the light wood was maple, it could have been ash or something else...I remember you used what you could find locally.

Seems you also made a couple handsaws at some point.

Dayum.....those chests look awesome!

Alan

[Handplanesandmore]

Here is an update on my last post about Tage Frid's layout line preference.

I located the FW article he penned along with Christian Becksvoort (FW #116). The joint does show the lines, but they could have been removed in the final step of a proper build. We need other materials to find out his preference.

So, I turned to his T.F. Teaches Woodworking books. After seeing the photos, and most importantly his instructions on dovetails, I can reasonably say that like Becksvoort, he did leave the lines on his pieces:

1) Photo. 50 on p. 71 (Book 1) shows a joint AFTER he fixed a dovetail mistake. Deep baseline on the tail.
2) Photo. 1 on p. 82 shows a finished/planed angled dovetail joint, again with clear line on the tail & pin.

But the most conclusive sign is in his instructions. Not only does he mark the lines with a marking gauge, he recommends "Us[ing] a chisel to cut the marking gauge line deeper (P. 67)."

Obviously, if you are going to remove the lines, you don't want to make them deeper!

Why would woodworkers like him, Krenov and Becksvoort leave their lines behind? I suspect it may have more to do with the fact that time was money to them and they would rather finish a piece in the shortest possible amount of time than worry about removing those lines. Their consideration might have nothing to do with esthetics. Of course, anyone may come up with a different explanation.

Lines or no lines? It is always a maker's choice, not much different than whether you sign your piece or not.

Simon

[Scoony]

That looks fine to me, as it is on the back. I don't mind that at all, but I wouldn't leave them on the front, I guess I kind of feel like you in that regard!


Good to see your name around, I do still remember your workbench build and really loved how you used the walnut mixed in with the other wood, I don't think the light wood was maple, it could have been ash or something else...I remember you used what you could find locally.

Seems you also made a couple handsaws at some point.

Dayum.....those chests look awesome!

Alan

Got rid of that bench a few years ago. It had a maple and cherry top with walnut base. Found out that mixing cherry and maple for a work top was not a bright idea. The cherry wears away faster then the maple leaving a wavy surface, but then I am rough on my benches. The current bench is hard maple and is a heavy beast.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Here is an update on my last post about Tage Frid's layout line preference.

One of my all time favorite woodworkers, I just liked his humor, his antics and most importantly his skills.

There was a video I watched once where he was at Highland Hardware, if my memory is correct...he was showing how to reduce the set of a backsaw, and he wacked it with a piece of wood or metal, to flatten the teeth. The guy at the seminar said, (to paraphrase) "Hey, you're putting dings all over my table saw top!", and Tage looked at the table and said, "oh yeah, now it looks like mine!"...LOL You and others may have seen that, I think it's been around for years...

Why would woodworkers like him, Krenov and Becksvoort leave their lines behind?

Everyone has different taste, if you watch a Klaus video and a Cosman video one after each other, they are totally different. Klaus goes very fast, wham, bam, thank you mam...Cosman works a bit slower, but not a slouch. Both get wonderful results. I have cut dovetails like Klaus and done pins first as he always does, but I like tails first, not sure exactly why...but I do.

This reminds me, Klaus has an amazing trick and I have always loved, in how he uses a bow saw with a twisted blade...if you watch one of his videos, he first uses a frame saw to cut the pins or tails, and when he cuts the waste out he is able to use a bow saw with a twisted blade and can flip the blade to get all of the waste cut flush to the baseline....I've always liked that setup, but don't like to use such a custom tool, I like to use common saws. It's amazing how quick it flips and gets a sharp corner. I use a chisel to clean up that stuff, so Klaus' method is faster.

Got rid of that bench a few years ago. It had a maple and cherry top with walnut base. Found out that mixing cherry and maple for a work top was not a bright idea. The cherry wears away faster then the maple leaving a wavy surface, but then I am rough on my benches. The current bench is hard maple and is a heavy beast.

Ah, I somehow thought you mixed the walnut on the top also...I love cherry but wouldn't use it for a workbench, although it could work...heck I have some doug fir logs that were standing dead and I am thinking to just cut a long 4" slab for my new shop, like 4" thick x 16' long, I think I can get about 24" width which would be enough.

My current workbench is hard maple, I have a lot of narrows that I bought on the cheap, primarily to build my bench, I have sold some of it to get some space, but still have quite a bit, gonna use it for carcasses as I need them. I have quite a bit of wood...me loves wood! LOL I think I have about 150bf of Hickory, 200 bf of Walnut, tons of pine, and then I have a bunch of logs, about 500bf of Red Alder logs, maybe 2000bf of doug fir logs and 750bf of cedar. Saving all those logs to turn into furniture at some point.

I really like hard maple for a workbench, in fact I just like working it...not the easiest wood to work, but not bad. Cherry is more forgiving for me, and walnut is even more forgiving. Walnut is one of my favorite woods to work.

Alan

[Handplanesandmore]

One of my all time favorite woodworkers, I just liked his humor, his antics and most importantly his skills.


Alan

His stool is iconic. I watched an old video (VHS!) of hisa long long tine ago in which he worked with a younger fellow to glue up a large mitered edged cabinet. Anyone who has done their share of large glue-ups, let alone a mitered one, know how challenging that can be. His use of cauls was insightful.

Simon

[Handplanesandmore]

More update, if you care, about the practice on dovetail layout lines.

First, a correction: Tage Frid did not make the tail lines deeper with a chisel for the purpose of leaving the layout lines; he did it to avoid the push back of the layout lines. He did leave the rest of the gauge lines in tact in his finished pieces, and that fact has not changed. So we can call him a traditionalist on that (according to Paul Sellers, that is).

The update this time is about Frank Klausz. I have not been able to find photos of his finished dovetail work, but this video suggests he removes those layout lines, as the tissue box does not seem to have the deep lines seen (at least not on my monitor):

https://youtu.be/lrAAglKLPh8?t=10m51s

Simon