Woodworking in the woodworking forum

[Derek Cohen]

Lately it seems that off-topic discussions have made their way into the woodworking forum.

I avoid the Off Topic forum to so as not to be subjected to vitriol.  It would be nice if the off-topic stuff remained in the off-topic forum.  Perhaps the moderators can move some of these out.  

Perhaps all the off-topic stuff is why we're seeing less and less actual woodworking discussions.

I posted my current build in the Hand Tool forum, and was wondering if it was in the wrong place as there were only two individuals who responded to it. At this stage it has had 399 views. Earlier, I had posted a video demonstrating the use of a fretsaw. Two responses and 453 views. By contrast, a question about blades for the same fretsaw shortly afterwards had 43 responses and 1800 views. It is evident to me that there is more interest in discussing tools than in discussing technique. 

This is a pattern that has been increasingly apparent over the past few years. The question is why? The answer seems to me to be that the expertise has left the building, and there are too few with enough experience and confidence to respond. I am not even sure if there is much interest in using the tooling, or learning how to use the tools. Just that there seems to be more interest in owning the tools. 

This is not a knock of members who prefer to collect tools - I recognise that there are many reasons for becoming (or calling oneself) a woodworker. My concern is that there are fewer and fewer discussions about design or crafting, and those members who seek this involvement will leave. I am undecided whether I will post the next episode of my build if there no one interested enough to critique it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Handplanesandmore]

Good point about tools vs projects. Regarding comments, some people may keep any negative comments to themselves fearing that they may offend the contributor. Also, what else under the sky hasn't been covered when it comes to techniques (except those related to new power tools)? People who need help will find the answers quicker and clearer (if in the video format) by Googling.

1,000 views is peanut when it is compared to 450, 311 views on a youtube vid, or 678,005 Instagram subscribers. My point is that our attention span is changing, and most people have no time for narrative forums.

Simon

[jppierson]

I really enjoy the build-alongs, and wish there were many more of them. There is a lot of instructional value. However, I for one, am not in a position to be critical, particularly you Derek. I stand in awe of the quality of work the forum members produce. I find the tool discussions useful, and have been known to go try some of the techniques or as a launching pad for additional research on stuff I never knew existed. My suggestion would be if a poster wants critique then ask for it, don't expect it to be automatic. We should all be adult enough to understand critique isn't personal; it is an interpretation of the facts at hand. Personally, I don't make stuff but do repairs on old tools and furniture for my daughters Antique Mall. I try to use the techniques, tools and finishes that were used when the article was originally made out of respect for the item and the craftsman who built it originally. This forum has been a prime place for me to learn (given there isn't any local, or even within travel distance) formal woodworking clubs or stores where I can hang out, or participate in classes.

[Vince]

Vince, we don't say it enough (or at all)...but we do appreciate the work you and all the moderators (past and present) have done and still do to keep this going.

Thanks Fred, but the member-mods deserve all the credit. I haven't had much to do with moderating the forum in several years, not because I don't want to, but simply because other duties have pulled me away. I'm more of a MINO (moderator in name only).

[GNP]

MINO has to be better than WINO. Woodworker in name only.

[Aram]

It is evident to me that there is more interest in discussing tools than in discussing technique. 


Derek

Possibly. Could also be that people don't have a useful reply during a build along. It the techniques aren't solving their specific problems, I suspect some people think, great project, looks fantastic and difficult. That's not something everyone necessarily posts. It's hard to gauge people's responses from posts alone. Just speculating.

[adamcherubini]

I posted my current build in the Hand Tool forum, and was wondering if it was in the wrong place as there were only two individuals who responded to it. At this stage it has had 399 views. Earlier, I had posted a video demonstrating the use of a fretsaw. Two responses and 453 views. By contrast, a question about blades for the same fretsaw shortly afterwards had 43 responses and 1800 views. It is evident to me that there is more interest in discussing tools than in discussing technique. 

This is a pattern that has been increasingly apparent over the past few years. The question is why? The answer seems to me to be that the expertise has left the building, and there are too few with enough experience and confidence to respond. I am not even sure if there is much interest in using the tooling, or learning how to use the tools. Just that there seems to be more interest in owning the tools. 

This is not a knock of members who prefer to collect tools - I recognise that there are many reasons for becoming (or calling oneself) a woodworker. My concern is that there are fewer and fewer discussions about design or crafting, and those members who seek this involvement will leave. I am undecided whether I will post the next episode of my build if there no one interested enough to critique it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

2 points:
1) I think all special interest web forums are dominated by the "what to buy" post. As consumers, we google virtually everything we seek to purchase. Right, wrong or indifferent it just is. Many magazines were sold as "what to buy" sources of info (year end tool reviews were always big sellers). So I don't think this is new to woodworking or internet forums. 

Neither are the complaints from those who feel the forums or magazines have "gone downhill". Guys use these media sources to determine what to buy, but the media doesn't grow with the reader. Never understood this one.

2) When the internet forums were new, there was lots of interest from people looking to make money on them. I feel like (but have no evidence) there were more advertisers and more tool manufacturers, people teaching classes or wanting to, ww media/press folks. I think many have realized there is not a good value equation for participating, blogging etc. Its a lot of work for zero reward.

Woodworking content seems to have moved to Youtube, which, my kids tell me, pays better.

I'll just leave this here, but I thought youtube was fantastic when it first came out.  But if it really does pay better, that may be what turns me off about it. Too much theater.  And I feel like every presenter is presenting only to collect subscribers "hit like, his subscribe". What about making a video just to help somebody else?  What about the viewers?  I feel like a pawn in someone's get rich quick scheme. A million hits for an xbox controller unboxing is the inevitability of all things on youtube.  Or watching a kid play video games in his Mom's basement. Holy crap! Check please!

[FrankAtl]

I posted my current build in the Hand Tool forum, and was wondering if it was in the wrong place as there were only two individuals who responded to it. At this stage it has had 399 views. Earlier, I had posted a video demonstrating the use of a fretsaw. Two responses and 453 views. By contrast, a question about blades for the same fretsaw shortly afterwards had 43 responses and 1800 views. It is evident to me that there is more interest in discussing tools than in discussing technique. 

This is a pattern that has been increasingly apparent over the past few years. The question is why? The answer seems to me to be that the expertise has left the building, and there are too few with enough experience and confidence to respond. I am not even sure if there is much interest in using the tooling, or learning how to use the tools. Just that there seems to be more interest in owning the tools. 

This is not a knock of members who prefer to collect tools - I recognise that there are many reasons for becoming (or calling oneself) a woodworker. My concern is that there are fewer and fewer discussions about design or crafting, and those members who seek this involvement will leave. I am undecided whether I will post the next episode of my build if there no one interested enough to critique it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I think this comment says it all. Derek, you post some of the best build threads I have ever seen so please don't be discouraged by the number of responses. I'm one of the people who view your threads but probably haven't commented very often because I'm in awe of your talent and the painstaking effort you go through to show and describe all of the details. I would imagine that process takes about as long as the actual project. When I read a post I usually don't comment unless I have a question or something beneficial to add. I can see now that is probably a bad thing, at least for a build thread. It only takes a minute of two to comment so I'm going to try to do that more often.

I work on a computer all day so I don't spend a lot of time browsing forums. Actually, this is the only forum that I am still a member of. I'd like to see it grow and become more active regardless of the reasons for the inactivity. I'm glad this discussion is happening and maybe we can turn this trend around with a little effort.

[Mr Eddie]

Derek,
I truly enjoy your build along posts.  You are not hesitant to tackle projects with unusual joinery and I like seeing how you approach those challenges.  You have a good eye for design and that is something many do not have.  I find it very helpful to understand another person's perspective as opposed to my own.

I think this is a good post coming at a time when it is sorely needed.  Perhaps we all need to start posting even if we consider the project to be too basic or not flashy enough.  I have been doing a lot of small shop projects lately.  And even though they are not 'fine' woodworking, I have either learned new skills, found better ways, or honed my skills to a higher level.  Even those types of projects could help others.  I hope everyone will try to commit to contributing more.  This is a great forum and I have made many friends while learning a great deal about our craft.  My thanks to all!

Lonnie

[Handplanesandmore]

A million hits for an xbox controller unboxing is the inevitability of all things on youtube.  Or watching a kid play video games in his Mom's basement. Holy crap! Check please!

The so-called social influencers can simply show off the silly things they do or wear on a "regular" day, and still attract far more views (likes?) in a couple of days than the total number of views this forum or a similar forum pulls in over a month! I was also told make-up channels featuring the young or the mature are also a magnet for many female (and male too?) followers.

Youtube is no longer just a source for knowledge or information or entertainment (music, concerts), but also a means to collect consumers' interests, buying behavior, etc., and a place to idolize (strangers). Luckily, I don't waste time watching youtube except when my Google search (say "How to fix my Toyota (year plus model) tail lights") brings me what I need to see.

Many woodworking youtubes that come up because of a Google search (I subscribe to nothing...even my Fine Woodworking is ending soon) tend to be long-winded...which I either avoid like plague or watch in a fast-forward manner (a 23 minute clip is done watching in 3 to 5 minutes).

Simon