Dovetails and Work Height

[Hank Knight]

Why are we arguing about this stuff? I think it's good for beginning dovetailers to know that there are various jigs that can help with this skill. They can try them or not and they may or may not adopt them. If someone finds a jig helpful, good. If they don't, there's no need to denigrate it; others may find it helpful. In my view, it's personal preference thing. I designed and built a jig to help me cut half blind dovetails accurately. I've cut a lot of dovetails over the years and I still use this jig. I posted it once on one of these forums and got slammed for using a jig for beginners. I felt bad for about ten minutes then went happily back to using my jig. I'm all in favor of sharing ideas and experiences with work aids. If someone finds an idea doesn't work for them, that's fine; but there's no reason to take issue with the poster. If it works for the poster, good and thanks for sharing it. It may work for someone else and make their work more enjoyable. Work styles are very personal and become more so as time passes. There's no reason to get in a knot if someone's style differs from your own.

[Philip1231]

Hank: Thanks for those words of reason. I think we all know that its easier to criticize than to constructively add to a conversation, and it just comes with the territory. Hopefully, we can get back to a meaningful dialogue about the issue I presented, even if its a dialogue devoid of "expert" opinions. Phil

Why are we arguing about this stuff? I think it's good for beginning dovetailers to know that there are various jigs that can help with this skill. They can try them or not and  they may or may not adopt them. If someone finds a jig helpful, good. If they don't, there's no need to denigrate it; others may find it helpful. In my view, it's personal preference thing. I designed and built a jig to help me cut half blind dovetails accurately. I've cut a lot of dovetails over the years and I still use this jig. I posted it once on one of these forums and got slammed for using a jig for beginners. I felt bad for about ten minutes then went happily back to using my jig. I'm all in favor of sharing ideas and experiences with work aids. If someone finds an idea doesn't work for them, that's fine; but there's no reason to take issue with the poster. If it works for the poster, good and thanks for sharing it. It may work for someone else and make their work more enjoyable. Work styles are very personal and become more so as time passes. There's no reason to get in a knot if someone's style differs from your own.

[Philip1231]

Ron: interesting you mentioned hang angle. My lower hang angle saws worked wonderfully, but I did try my Skelton which is the highest hang angle saw I have, and it seemed to work, albeit somewhat more aggressive than the others. I am really temped to re-purpose that LN DT vise, although I hate to start cutting that into pieces! Phil

I made a basic moxon vise a while back that puts the dove tail cuts about 7" above my bench. ( six inch vise jaws ) It still feels foreign and a bit awkward to me, no doubt from lack of use. I find myself reaching for my 32* lower hang dovetail saw,  rather than my 38 or 45*. Keeps my wrist a little straighter. I considered making something like Chris's or Jeff's but always came back to "Where am I gong to store it" :
I do think a persons normal stance has a lot to do with the comfort level. Then again, I doubt I will ever cut as many dovetails as Chris has. A lot to be said for practice.  Thanks for posting.

[Derek Cohen]

YES to your comment regarding storm in a tea cup (many hand tool discussions are like that - tails first, sharpening, etc.) and complicated bench on bench or moxon bench.

NO about your remark that the Barron alignment board is for beginners. His jig is just like any other aids such as the shooting board or bench hook. Granted it doesn't work for all situations but no jigs do. For marking tasks it is designed for, it does a marvelous job - with super precision. I'm no beginner by any definition, but I enjoy using it every time I hand cut dovetails, through, half blind or others.

Simon

I can see that I have upset a few with my comment. Sorry about that. You are welcome to disagree with me. I am not the nth word on anything ... that honour belongs to my wife!


I have been experimenting with joinery methods for a long time. I never would knock anyone for trying something different - innovation the essence of creativity! Sometimes what looks like a good idea at first eventually turns out to have limitations. This may only become apparent when the original task (dovetailing) becomes more complex (such as angled dovetails). For the angled dovetails I have been making over the past couple of years, the Barron board has limitations. 



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Handplanesandmore]

Compared to alan peter's rabbet trick, the alignment board is years ahead. That rabbet trick has been shared first by Rob Cosman and recently by Sellers. Yes, the board is not for marking all kinds of dovetails. I'm sure Barron did not suggest it could handle everything. By the way, the first alignment look-alike device came from Robert Wearing, if my memory is correct. We can call Barron's an improved version.

Simon

[Derek Cohen]

Simon, in my opinion, the rabbet trick (or #140 trick) is better than the alignment board. So there!


The rabbet ensures that the edges butt up against one another. The alignment board will obscure the inside intersection (there is no light behind the pin board to be sure), which was my point earlier. It also limits one to a single - 90 degree - intersection angle. I am not a fan of the rabbet trick (or #140 trick) because it simply adds another dimension where one can screw up alignments. That is the reason I came up with a blue tape alternative:

The #140 trick, as demoed by Chris Schwarz ..





The blue tape alternative ...





It made it possible to mark the boards at an angle ...



Article on my website:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/T...sDead.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Philip1231]

Come one, come all: you are hereby invited to comment on my original post concerning dovetail sawing height:

-have you tried it?
-if so, what did you think of it?
-any recommendations for making this approach work even better?

So, to summarize, the topic is the height above the floor that you prefer to saw your dovetails and your thoughts on
this new to me approach of sawing at a much higher altitude.

[Aram]

Come one, come all: you are hereby invited to comment on my original post concerning dovetail sawing height:

-have you tried it?
-if so, what did you think of it?
-any recommendations for making this approach work even better?

So, to summarize, the topic is the height above the floor that you prefer to saw your dovetails and your thoughts on
this new to me approach of sawing at a much higher altitude.

Some people can clamp a board anywhere, saw the first board without marking, mark out and saw the second board and chisel perfect dovetails. Faster than I can get my tools off the shelf. I guess there are a lot of reasons the rest of us can't. For me, it's about seeing. My vision is not the best even with glasses on. I have to stand at a specific distance (pretty close) to cut accurately. So I have a Moxon type vise to raise the board up. It probably is marginally more comfortable than sawing lower, but that's secondary.

[Philip1231]

From a vision perspective, this approach wins the prize: this is the best view I've had of the line/kerf, without being hunched over the work. I have had LED spots mounted on the ceiling above my bench for quite some time, so its never been an issue of sufficient light, just proximity of my eyes to the work.

Some people can clamp a board anywhere, saw the first board without marking, mark out and saw the second board and chisel perfect dovetails. Faster than I can get my tools off the shelf. I guess there are a lot of reasons the rest of us can't. For me, it's about seeing. My vision is not the best even with glasses on. I have to stand at a specific distance (pretty close) to cut accurately. So I have a Moxon type vise to raise the board up. It probably is marginally more comfortable than sawing lower, but that's secondary.

[Mike Brady]

Mine sawing benchnot as tall as Becksvoort's but he is a rather tall man