An Introduction and a Bench Build

[cputnam]

This is one of the nicest guys in woodworking.
https://youtu.be/yvhn-PAfEW4
Mike is really fun to hang out with, I’d recommend his classes to anyone.

Not what I would call an historically accurate bench, nor perhaps historical woodworking, not that we care for this discussion. Mike shows how to use a bench without vises in a practical no nonsense manner.

What I do is called the “English Method” (sounds like an 80s band). If you google that with my name you will find an old blog post about it. Its a little different from what Mike was showing in that I don’t rely quite so heavily on battens and hold fasts for every operation. Mike gets it. He’s just trying to demonstrate all the different things you can do with a few simple boards, stops and holdfasts.

One of Mike’s motivations is to reduce the cost barrier that prevents folks from starting woodworking. I think he’s right that we’ve over commercialized woodworking to some degree. We probably need to consider that more here. I’m happy to debate the merits of tail vises, but, if at the end of the day, we leave folks with the impression that the ONLY way to do this is to BUY this maybe we haven't helped everyone. I’ll be interested in your replies.

PS one of my favorite Mike Siemsen demos is where he cuts a beautiful set of dovetails with a hack saw and I think a sharpened screwdriver. He’s really fun to watch in person.

We met at WIA in Pasadena and you convinced me that one does not need a tail vise. Nonetheless, I walked away equally convinced that I wanted one. One chooses one poison and lies in the bed they made (how's that for mixing metaphors?)

[arnman]

With all four legs mortised into the table top, is there any concern with the top moving relative to the legs? The leg frame will not want to expand / contract to the same degree as the top. Either the leg frame is going to flex, or the top will crack - what am I missing?

[Master-of-None]

With all four legs mortised into the table top, is there any concern with the top moving relative to the legs?  The leg frame will not want to expand / contract to the same degree as the top.  Either the leg frame is going to flex, or the top will crack - what am I missing?

arnman, I'm not sure if you are referring to someone's comment or question. 
Because the construction lumber is sawn flat at the lumber yards, when I use it it's with the edges up, so effectively becoming quarter sawn. In that direction there is very little movement of the wood, and lengthwise there is even less. So that assuming the mortices and tenons have good snug fit, there should be no issues with wood movement.
Right now, I am trying to decide whether I should glue the tenons/legs into the top or it will be solid enough just placed on top of the legs. I'm leaning towards the latter since that would allow me to disassemble the bench to move it, in case that should be required sometime. But mainly I want a bench that has as little movement as possible.

[arnman]

Thanks Master. I was just raising a general question - not responding to anyone else.

I can understand the minimal movement expected of the top with the flatsawn boards being placed on edge. There will probably end up being some combination of rift sawn and quarter sawn in that arrangement. I have only read a few comments about bench tops developing splits, and I don't know that they were Roubo tops, or if there were other problems with the glue-up. Don't take this as a critique of the design - I am just raising the question. I hope to be doing this soon and I am trying to get some of my own questions and concerns answered.

I recently read through a Fine Woodworking article (Tools and Shops issue 230 from 2012/2013) that had a Roubo bench build article. The builder used longitudinal (with the length of top) tenons on the front legs, and transverse tenons on the back legs to allow for movement. They were not through-tenons. I don't remember if he glued the front tenons or not.

[Admiral]

Right now, I am trying to decide whether I should glue the tenons/legs into the top or it will be solid enough just placed on top of the legs.

I toyed with building a bench but due to time constraints I ended up getting a Sjobergs Elite about 15 years ago, and the top sits on loose (but tight) dowels; never had an issue with instability.  I guess the key is accuracy in the round mortises in the top and on the frame, so if you go that way some sort of a boring jig is advisable; a wedged solid tenon would allow for more error in the top's mortise.

[adamcherubini]

I think with legs mortised into the top, that’s less of a concern as opposed to a bench where there is a frame like a table and then the top is attached to that rigidly.

Like if you had an upper stretcher, that would be a bigger problem.

[wmickley]

Quartersawn Douglas fir has about 30% less seasonal movement than flat sawn. I would expect movement around 3/16 or so. As Adam suggested this is not a problem for a low stretcher which is somewhat removed from the bench top. 

I have used a doe foot for about forty years. I never tried it on planing the face of a board, though. We plane against a single stop with the board otherwise loose on the bench.

[Timberwolf]

Quartersawn Douglas fir has about 30% less seasonal movement than flat sawn. I would expect movement around 3/16 or so. As Adam suggested this is not a problem for a low stretcher which is somewhat removed from the bench top. 

I have used a doe foot for about forty years. I never tried it on planing the face of a board, though. We plane against a single stop with the board otherwise loose on the bench.

..............................
LIL....if you "think" you need a tail vise...you DO!.You don't have to use it if you don't want to, but now is the time to incorporate it into the design. Methods of work can change and you may wish you had one down the road.

Personally I love vises....So much so that I have six { 6 } on my main bench...one is an Emmert, and one is a large Charles Parker Machinist vise mounted on the top right hand corner of the bench.. I have two Wilton Bullets on two other benches. Altogether about two dozen, large and small, in my collection, some I have had for fifty years. I love vises....and I fail to see what the "big deal" is...

[MarkSingleton]

Jack that is a stealth gloat if I ever read one.......two Wilton bullets , a Charles Parker
AND and an Emmert??

That's piling on!!

[brianwelch]

..............................
LIL....if you "think" you need a tail vise...you DO!.You don't have to use it if you don't want to, but now is the time to incorporate it into the design. Methods of work can change and you may wish you had one down the road.

Personally I love vises....So much so that I have six { 6 } on my main bench...one is an Emmert, and one is a large Charles Parker Machinist vise mounted on the top right hand corner of the bench.. I have two Wilton Bullets on two other benches. Altogether about two dozen, large and small, in my collection, some I have had for fifty years. I love vises....and I fail to see what the "big deal" is...
 

One might actually say that your vice is vises... (at least one of them, that is)