Condensation on ceiling

[atgcpaul]

Seems to be a condensation issue as many of you suspected.  The roofer I found on Yelp and recommended by Nextdoor was the only one to go into the attic and look.  He found no evidence of a roof leak (although both roofers agreed the roof should be replaced in a few years), but saw insulation moved away from the same areas where moisture appeared on the ceiling.  I want to throttle the home inspector (and me) for being lazy by not getting up there while he was in the garage attic.  The roofer was able to see it by just standing and looking from the garage attic apparently.  His theory is that the heavy snow we had covered up the ridge vents preventing air exchange in the attic which then led to the condensation on the ceiling.  His recommendation is to get an insulation contractor in there to address it which we are arranging for Wednesday.  When the roof needs to go, I'm definitely calling this company back in to do it.

The other roofer called in by the PM (who didn't go in the attic) suspected the solar panels, wanted them taken off, that section of shingles replaced, and then a ridge vent added (but there's already a ridge vent)



Thanks,
Paul

[Snipe Hunter]

Check your messages. 99.99% sure it's inadequate insulation in the attic.

[Snipe Hunter]

I thought I'd share this graphic from a home inspection (not mine). The dark areas on the ceiling tested positive for mold growth. The infra red (Flir) photo was taken it the summer so the discolored areas are showing as hot spots. If it were taken in the winter, they would show as cold spots. There is blown-in insulation in the attic. The inspector went into the attic and observed missing (displaced) insulation in these spots. If it were in the winter, the discolored areas would have shown a higher moisture content (MC) with a moisture meter. The existing thin layer of insulation above the spots showed a higher MC. than the rest of the insulation. Meaning the humid air in the attic was condensing on the cold insulation and dry-wall above rthe spots. So, it's actually getting wet throughout the year. No mold growth was detected in the attic. Possibly because the attic gets so hot in the summer. Most molds won't grow above 100 degrees. The ceiling was painted with a permeable ceiling paint (as it should be) allowing the moisture to soak into the dry-wall. Paint sold as "Ceiling paint" is permeable. Any exterior wall or ceiling adjacent to an attic should be painted with a permeable paint to allow for moisture egress. Gloss (impermeable) paints should not be used except on surfaces adjacent to another conditioned space. Structures do need to breath to stay dry. Impermeable paints or moisture barriers won't allow for drying. Moisture "retarders" like permeable paints and Tyvek are designed to slow and control moisture intrusion so things can still dry out.

[Turner52]

Yes those infareds are an amazing tool. When my company started using them they were about $10,000 for a good one but were worth it in the long run. With the ability to take pictures you could document everyting much faster. Heck of a lot easier looking for problems that way than climbing a ladder to check all of the ceilings with a moisture meter.I was once checking a job where the homeowner was leaning on a pool table with one hand. He had moved a couple of minutes before I happened to run the camera over the table while I was walking to a different spot. All of his hand and fingers were clearly displayed on the slate top as hot spots. He was amazed when I showed him that. I don't think he was really a believer in what I was doing before that.

[Robert Adams]

Yes those infareds are an amazing tool. When my company started using them they were about $10,000 for a good one but were worth it in the long run. With the ability to take pictures you could document everyting much faster. Heck of a lot easier looking for problems that way than climbing a ladder to check all of the ceilings with a moisture meter.I was once checking a job where the homeowner was leaning on a pool table with one hand. He had moved a couple of minutes before I happened to run the camera over the table while I was walking to a different spot. All of his hand and fingers were clearly displayed on the slate top as hot spots. He was amazed when I showed him that. I don't think he was really a believer in what I was doing before that.

              Yeah and now you can get one for $100 ish that plugs into your phone and works as well as the 10K ones just a few years ago. Or you can get a CAT 61 or a Ulephone Armor 9 phone with the sensor in it already among other features on the CAT. Between the two the CAT is a better phone for a work phone and the Armor 9 is better for regular users as the camera and processor are better.

         As for the condensation cold ceiling + high humidity in the house = Condensation. I'll bet the humidity is 60%+ in that house if not well over 70%. Ideally you want it under 40% though houses and humans can tolerate it as high as 50%. Once you get past 50% you start running into comfort and building issues. It's a really common problem here like I mentioned because we only have about a month of the year where you can have low humidity and that is 30 days total of the days when a cold front goes through.

[Snipe Hunter]

This has been an interesting topic for me as a home inspector. I've been farming out mold inspections for 4 years. So if I suspect mold in a home or if my client suspects it, I call in an environmental testing company. I log everything I do for the inspection business down to the last detail. Mostly so I can see where I'm making money and loosing money and how much time it takes me to make or loose money. And it's a way to cover my butt in case I ever wind up in court. I know exactly how much it costs me to gain a new client and how much time it takes to gain one new client. Marketing costs are staggering if you look at it this way, especially in a business where you might only get 1 job from each client. I've decided to offer more services to the client's I have and maximize dollars per job. My best guess is that I farmed out approximately 50 environmental testing jobs last year for a total of about $35,000. Not to mention the jobs I didn't know about because my regular referring agents didn't contact me because they knew I didn't do mold testing. Who knows how much I lost there?? So the plan this year is to work more efficiently and farm out less services. I still won't do well or septic. I can inspect for mold in Maryland without any certification except an Inspector's license (as in most states). But to do it right and to make the test results meaningful, a bit of education is a good idea. Last Week I passed a course through my Home Inspector's association which took about a week and I became IAC2 certified. IAC2 is the International Association of Certified Indoor Air Consultants. I'm about 75% through the next "Advanced" Course.... I've been watching lectures for 2 days. Only 3 more 1 hour lectures and I'll have to submit 2 essays and take a final exam. This won't change my certification any but I will gain more practical knowledge. I ordered a nice air sampling pump, new temp and humidity sensors. That should all be here this week and I set up an account with a local mold testing lab so I don't have to rely on the USPS for quick turn around for sample results. I will get an IR camera but not yet. In the meantime, I'll keep using a laser thermometer and a hand held moisture detector.

[Turner52]

Not sure how that will work out for you. Depends on the local competition. My company did 100+ mold remediation projects a year. because we did the remediation we would not do any testing due to conflict of interest issues. We required a test before starting and then a test after work was completed. We guaranteed we would pass the clearance test, but we could not promise anything after that. No way to controll the situation after we left and if things got wet mold would start again. The projects ran from seveal thousands to in some commercial project several hundred thousand. We would give several references for companys doing testing and they could go with any of them or find someone else. All of the local companies did like you are going to do. 7-10 day wait for results. I found a company a little over a 100 miles from our territory. He was an actual environmetal hygenist. 24 hour turnaroud on reports and about 2/3 of the cost per test. He didn't have to pay a lab and wait for test results. Looked thru his microscope and gave the results. We informed whoever was making the decision on selection for testing about this, but also provided them with a paper from our lawyer statng we were not recommending any particular company and they could go with anyone they selected. We recieved no kickback from this company and the owner of the property had to contact whoever they wanted and their own contract with them and pay the bills directly to that company. In a lot of commercial project time was of the essence. Being closed was not profitable. One of the biggest and highest pressure job was an elementary school were mold was discovered about 3 weeks before scool was sheduled to reopen in the fall. I had to give them 3 seperate prices. first was to open 4 weeks late. second was to open 3 weeks late and final to open 2 weeks late. They chose the last and most expensive. the school only had $50,000 in insurance coverage for this. The taxpayers had to pay the other $225,000 Obviously there were news trucks parked outside most of the time. Mold and a late start date were major news. Royal pain in the butt.

[Snipe Hunter]

I don't care about local competition. If I did, I would have an employer. There are 42 home inspectors in my zip-code and I stay pretty busy.

Mold samples should be in the lab within 24 hours of collection. Not sure why it took 7-10 days? The lab I'll be using won't test them if more than 24 hours old. I'll be using EMSL who has a lab not too far from here so I can drop off samples on the way home from collection. I'll have results within 24 hours of drop off. A lot of Inspectors use Pro-Labs in Fla and they'll test anything as long as the collector cassette "use by" date hasn't expired. My clients will have next day results.

This will be just another service I offer. I should offer it. Any decent inspector should do this. Not much different than radon testing. Radon testing is about 1/3 of my income. Not sure how I'll do with mold inspections but it will only take about 3 mold inspections to cover my equipment costs.