(01-23-2021, 09:56 AM)Philip1231 Wrote: Looks like you are off to a great start!
It may be useful to actually glue this practice joint together and then plane it smooth. You will be amazed how much better these joints will look, and will give you some insight into how much latitude you actually have in terms of tolerance on the interference fit between the pins and tails.
I fully agree with Phil, I would actually glue shim some of your not so tight joints so you know how to fix mistakes for future projects where you dont have any extra material. When doing this just make sure grain orientation is correct. I was shown this in a class and I still use it today, you can never see the shims if done correctly.
My parents had a little chest of drawers from some period, probably 19th century from the style, on which the drawer dovetails looked like they'd been chewed out by a gerbil on espresso; and the drawers were holding just fine.
Ok, sets #3 and #4 back-to-back (I'll do a new post for #4). These had opposite problems. Set #3 had the worst gaps that I've created so far, and was the first set to go together with hand pressure instead of a mallet. So yes, as a few of you have said, I need to practice covering my gaps. I'll work on that eventually, but for now I'm just working on my techniques and want a record of what they look like without attempted fixes. I had tried cutting a bit closer to the blue tap when cutting the pins, which caused some of the gap problems. Good to know roughly where my saw should start relative to the tape!
Bill, yeah, I'm sure these are plenty strong functionally. I've heard people say that most drawers over over built, especially with dovetails. I'm just going for prettiness and craftsmanship.
And I have some moxon vise hardware on order, which I'm excited about. It'll probably come in a week or two. Then I'll need to find time in the shop to actually make the vise.
And set #4. This one looks the best so far, but was so tight that I created three cracks in the wood (two on the tail piece, one on the pin piece) when I tried to force them together with a mallet. You can see them in the pictures.
When I cut the tails, I noticed that my saw lines on the back and front of the board weren't exactly the same. So, essentially, I ended up making a tapered channel for the pins. When marking the pins, they were marked for the wide side of that taper. Thus, problems and cracks when the joint is forced together. How would you go about solving this? I recognized the problem before I laid out the pins, but didn't see an obvious solution immediately. After the cracks formed but before doing the glue up, I pared down the inside faces of the tails and pins with a chisel to relieve some of the pressure, but the damage was already done.
Also, I tried a new technique when cutting the pins. Up until now, I had been getting my face close to the board so I could watch the kerf and follow my pencil line carefully. That makes for an awkward arm angle while cutting. I noticed that I was curving inward toward the pins (on the cuts on both sides), especially toward the ends of the cuts, perhaps because I'm always watching the pin-side of the saw. That leads to ugly gaps. So, this time, for half the cuts, I just made an initial kerf to align the cut and then essentially stood up and cut as straight as I could. It was much better! But also a bit nerve wracking since I couldn't be keeping a close eye on the pencil line the whole time. I'm going to try this technique a bit more and see if it's consistent.
- Mark the joining edges (on tails) with graphite (pencil)
- Use a hammer not a mallet to tap the pieces together. Listen to sound as you tap. Stop when it sounds too solid and undo the pieces. The graphite marks show where the tight spots are. Pare them off before retrying with the hammer.
Handplanesandmore Wrote:To avoid cracking, follow Alan Peters ----
- Mark the joining edges (on tails) with graphite (pencil)
- Use a hammer not a mallet to tap the pieces together. Listen to sound as you tap. Stop when it sounds too solid and undo the pieces. The graphite marks show where the tight spots are. Pare them off before retrying with the hammer.
Sounds like a great approach, if I can find a regular (non mechanical) pencil. Yes, mechanical could work, but I only use very fine and it would take forever.
Wouldn't this kill the holding power of the glue in the joint?
02-08-2021, 08:13 PM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2021, 08:14 PM by adamcherubini.)
I think its funny (weird, strange, maybe stupid) that woodworkers are so enamored by DT joints. FWW even uses the joint as their logo. My brother once said there is no such thing as perfect dovetails. I like the looks of nice dovetails and lots of guys here on this forum do a real nice job of them. But the reality is, they really don't need to be pretty to function and they don't need to be a tight as we make them. Its (here comes WN blasphemy) NOT THAT IMPORTANT OF A JOINT. If 65% of your dovetails were tight-ish, you'd have a successful carcase.
In contrast, the joint that is hard to cut and needs to be darn near perfect to function is the M&T. M&T are used for actual important stuff like chairs, houses, windows, work benches etc. Hand cut dovetails are a rite of passage around here. What about hand cut M&Ts?
Was talking to a craftsman last week about making some doors for my barn project. He said he made doors the traditional way. "Yeah", hey said, "Just like they did it back in the day with dowels and everything".
I guess that's a step up from biscuits. I think had I said "wedged thru tenons" he wouldn't have known what I was talking about. So that's one more thing I'll be building myself.
(02-08-2021, 08:13 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: I think its funny (weird, strange, maybe stupid) that woodworkers are so enamored by DT joints. FWW even uses the joint as their logo. My brother once said there is no such thing as perfect dovetails. I like the looks of nice dovetails and lots of guys here on this forum do a real nice job of them. But the reality is, they really don't need to be pretty to function and they don't need to be a tight as we make them. Its (here comes WN blasphemy) NOT THAT IMPORTANT OF A JOINT. If 65% of your dovetails were tight-ish, you'd have a successful carcase.
In contrast, the joint that is hard to cut and needs to be darn near perfect to function is the M&T. M&T are used for actual important stuff like chairs, houses, windows, work benches etc. Hand cut dovetails are a rite of passage around here. What about hand cut M&Ts?
Was talking to a craftsman last week about making some doors for my barn project. He said he made doors the traditional way. "Yeah", hey said, "Just like they did it back in the day with dowels and everything".
I guess that's a step up from biscuits. I think had I said "wedged thru tenons" he wouldn't have known what I was talking about. So that's one more thing I'll be building myself.
No expert on either here, however as an interested observer the mortise and tenon joint (unless it's a through tenon like is seen in a lot of A&C furniture, including Greene & Greene) is basically a hidden joint. Also lots of substitutes for M&T joints; not so much for hand cut dovetails. The joint is strong, distinct and has a certain appealing look that's difficult to duplicate IMO.
adamcherubini Wrote:I think its funny (weird, strange, maybe stupid) that woodworkers are so enamored by DT joints. FWW even uses the joint as their logo. My brother once said there is no such thing as perfect dovetails. I like the looks of nice dovetails and lots of guys here on this forum do a real nice job of them. But the reality is, they really don't need to be pretty to function and they don't need to be a tight as we make them. Its (here comes WN blasphemy) NOT THAT IMPORTANT OF A JOINT. If 65% of your dovetails were tight-ish, you'd have a successful carcase.
In contrast, the joint that is hard to cut and needs to be darn near perfect to function is the M&T. M&T are used for actual important stuff like chairs, houses, windows, work benches etc. Hand cut dovetails are a rite of passage around here. What about hand cut M&Ts?
That's a good question, and one that I've heard before in various forms through the years of doing woodworking (not necessarily about dovetails). I fully agree that the joints I'm making here are 100% functional and would last a long time (perhaps minus the one that I created cracks in). I'm also all about putting function first and overbuilding things, so perhaps dovetails are a good fit (does that count as a pun?).
That being said, I'm also a bit of a perfectionist and take pride in the "artistic" side of my work. No, I'm not an artist and certainly others here have way more skill, but I appreciate the craftsmanship that can go into a tight fitting joint, whether done by myself or someone else. I'm willing to spend an extra hour on a dovetail joint just to make it as good and tight fitting as I can. Even if no one else sees it, it's something that I want to be proud of. And, I also like challenging myself with new skills, attempting to include one new thing in each piece of furniture that I make. So I get some joy from trying to make these as close to "perfect" as I can.
I don't know if you'd consider it the same, but I'm also willing to splurge on a fancier wood (curly, etc.) purely because I like how it looks. Granted, these days I only have time for about one or two real projects per year, so that doesn't turn into huge investments.
I think my attitude on all this would be much different if I did this for income instead of purely a hobby, unless perhaps I had some super-high-end, discerning clients.
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