Dovetails with frame saw

[nuk]

Cool! Thanks for checking back on that!

[Pedder]

They found another one. about minute 12. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s2kBdcm6xw
He is German, but no words are spoken.
I like his slow and still kind of making videos.

Cheers
Pedder

Edit: Sorry forgot to set the link.

[adamcherubini]

Alrighty, another one for the collective:

I've been looking around at some stuff on turning/bow/frame saws, and I've seen a few references that indicated that back saws were mostly an English/American thing, with the rest of Europe aka 'continentals' using frame saws, even for finer work such as dove tails.

I know I've seen videos showcasing Frank Klaus doing that, back in the day, and I think I've seen Paul Sellers doing something similar... but if the rest of Europe stuck with frame saws, it sure seems like there'd be more content out there showing that.  But for some reason I'm not finding much, if any.

Did the continentals all come over to the Dark Side of the back saw?  Or do they just not make videos over there?

I don’t know the answer, but I’ll hazard a guess:

I think backsaw history is a little murky. I don’t think the old tool cognoscenti even know when they first came into being. To be fair, I think backsaws were an English Dutch thing. The key to these sorts of saws was dutch rolling and slitting mills that essentially made sheet metal, early 18th c. When the first crucible steels were made in Sheffield, early to mid 18th c, good quality sheet spring steel could finally be produced. It was such a big deal, they advertised it on the saw blades and the saws were expensive…maybe $1000 in our money.

As great as sheet metal saws are, I think I’ve cut dovetails and other joinery with every saw there ever was. From a technical point of view, it’s the teeth that matter more than the form factor of the saw. Next, the length of the saw plays a role.

For amateurs, gentlemen woodworkers, part timers, almost anything can be made to work. Certainly a hacksaw is perfectly suitable. For pro cabinetmakers working by hand, the effort of drawer or carcass making could be hours long. The hand fatigue of working with something like a gents saw becomes an issue. The handle of a well designed back saw is meant to limit fatigue, shaped to your hand, not requiring grip strength to operate. My guess is, continental woodworkers would have switched quickly. Village carpenters, unable to afford saws which may have cost nearly a weeks wages would have stuck with what they knew, what they had.

[Derek Cohen]

That certainly makes sense to me, Adam. My personal preference when pushing a dovetail saw is a Western handle. This is just a better ergonomic in my experience (always a personal matter). In fact, the hang angle becomes a factor here. I do not like “gent” saws for this reason. Perhaps they came about as a cheap option for those who did little such work? A straight handle makes more ergonomic sense when pulling a saw, which is part of the reason for Japanese saws, as you know.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[adamcherubini]

That certainly makes sense to me, Adam. My personal preference when pushing a dovetail saw is a Western handle. This is just a better ergonomic in my experience (always a personal matter). In fact, the hang angle becomes a factor here. I do not like “gent” saws for this reason. Perhaps they came about as a cheap option for those who did little such work? A straight handle makes more ergonomic sense when pulling a saw, which is part of the reason for Japanese saws, as you know.

Regards from Perth

Derek

One of my tricks to sawing is keeping a very light grip on the saw. So a handle that fits my hand is an advantage for me. A gents saw, which requires a firm grasp, is harder for me to use well.

I made saw handles the old fashioned way, with a turning saw, rasps and chisels. I think each one took me over an hour to make and longer to fit. A turned handle built on a man powered lathe would have been literally minutes of effort. Gents saws weren’t better saws for gentlemen, they were cheaper saws for amateur woodworkers.

[Derek Cohen]

One of my tricks to sawing is keeping a very light grip on the saw. So a handle that fits my hand is an advantage for me. A gents saw, which requires a firm grasp, is harder for me to use well.

I made saw handles the old fashioned way, with a turning saw, rasps and chisels. I think each one took me over an hour to make and longer to fit. A turned handle built on a man powered lathe would have been literally minutes of effort. Gents saws weren’t better saws for gentlemen, they were cheaper saws for amateur woodworkers.

I agree with all of this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[CStan]

Then I guess a professional would put the biggest, coarsest saw he could on the job, for speed, which brings us full circle to a large bow saw it would seem.  Any back saw (gent's or otherwise) would just be varying degrees of "sissy." 

[bandit571]

Guess I could give this "Special saw"  a try out, Tuesday?

   
has 2 sets of teeth, maybe I can see which works best?

   
Geo. H. Bishop No. 10

   
Pins all marked out and ready to go.   1/2" thick Pine, through dovetails...

We'll see..