saw making

[Timberwolf]

No worries, as I said, I think it's all preference. It's just a bit harder and takes longer to. You and Mike were the reason I got the mini-mill, but it was after I was banned from Woodnet. I took mine entirely apart, cleaned everything and lubed it as should be, disassembled the column and add the belt option and the gas shock to raise/lower, most of that stuff is available from The Little Machine Shop. But for me I soon realized that yes, the mini-mill could slot brass ok, although limited in length, it's just subpar machine parts. And as I learned more about alloys I wanted to get away from brass due to deteriorating of the zinc is marine conditions. Bronze that was sunken in ships survived where brass ended up like a sponge where the zinc was eaten. I know we don't live in the bottom of the ocean, but bronze is just better material and if you have ever machined it compared to brass, they are very different other than chips are very small and powdery. I know people that have done XLNT work on mini-mills and mini-lathes, but I just wanted something more solid, and vintage industrial machines were so cheap...the only thing is they're heavy. I moved the mini-mill in a hatchback, I can't do that with my machines. The mini-mill started my metalworking, but I do have more woodworking machines as the intention has always been to build a log house. That goes back to about 2000 when I bought the property. I'll send you a link to my VintageMachinery page, the 'ol tailed apprentices are not appreciate around here I don't imagine.

Mike had a bigger Grizzly mill when I was visiting him, but hadn't put it into operation, it looked like a better machine than the mini-mill, but I will never get another one of those. For small work I would get something like a Rusnok.

I think his saws were called Zepher, but can't remember, and I can't remember his last name, only his first. This is one of the better techniques to use for a saw, and yes, I remember your saw of course. I remember asking you metalworking questions when I was trying to figure out how to make a split-nut. Now Mike was different, he bought all of his split-nuts and had his name edged on the larger medallion style. But I didn't want to buy such a large qty, they would only sell in lots of 500 or 1000. For Mike that was good.that is how I am.

Had I just bought the split-nuts it would have saved me time and a LOT of money, but what's the fun in that? I like to make stuff. So, I bought a 1946 South Bend 9A. It came out of the Levi Strauss factory in San Francisco, they bought it new. Still has the inventory tag on it. I did learn quite a bit on that machine, but it is really the minimal machine that should be considered a lathe, IMO. The mini-lathes are really poor. However, I know people from my local metalworking group that did some amazing work on them, tools they made to use on them, etc...so just like the mini-mill it's all relative, and don't read too much into my words, I have a lot of haters for what I say, or how I say it. If most of us met each other we'd get along just fine in my experience, but the Internet obfuscates that piece. We're all different.

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If most of us met each other we'd get along just fine in my experience, but the Internet obfuscates that piece. We're all different...

I agree completely Alan, and celebrate the difference..That's how things gets get invented and how they get improved...Nobody has a lock on ideas, some work out well...many don't, but that's how how they get improved.

You may remember Johnny..I have forgotten his last name, but he used to restore planes etc for fellows here on woodnet..He had an old South Bend 9a also..and he made and sold split nuts and screws..He like making and repairing tools and machines of all types. He was a wealth of knowledge..Last time I saw him was at an MWTCA tool meet in Tifton Ga.years ago.

You may know of a Youtube woman machinist who is quite talented...Goes by the handle of Blondihacks...She uses a lathe that if I were younger I would buy..She also has a mill of the same brand..They are the very best of all the imports...Name is Precision Matthews. Check out her videos.

My full size lathes are both old...one is a South Bend 9A, vintage 1948 and the other is a Myford Super Seven. The SB is a lot like one I used at the machine shop where I worked all through Jr and Sr HS..It was a SB Heavy Ten tho. And I have a full size Atlas/Craftsman combination wood/metal lathe. All of them old...like me...


Blondiehacks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9AqbENiLOQ

[Bruce Haugen]

You may know of a Youtube woman machinist who is quite talented...Goes by the handle of Blondihacks...She uses a lathe that if I were younger I would buy..She also has a mill of the same brand..They are the very best of all the imports...Name is Precision Matthews. Check out her videos.

My full size lathes are both old...one is a South Bend 9A, vintage 1948 and the other is a Myford Super Seven. The SB is a lot like one I used at the machine shop where I worked all through Jr and Sr HS..It was a SB Heavy Ten tho. And I have a full size Atlas/Craftsman combination wood/metal lathe. All of them old...like me...


Blondiehacks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9AqbENiLOQ

Quinn IS good, and also is a full time software developer.

Abom79 just bought a brand new Precision Matthews lathe.

[RonB1957]

Tony Z Several questions:  Ron, can you post a pic of your handle with the lamb's tongue?  Next, I would like to see opinions (versus a folded back) about slotted backs and what is the saw plate holding methods for such a back?  I know some are epoxied and some actually are pinned.  I'm a traditionalist and like the looks of a folded back a bit better, but if one or the other offers advantages, I'm interested! 

I actually have equipment to make either type of back, and could probably make saw plates.  Problem is, I doubt anyone would pay the tariff needed.  In other words, looking at saw making from a production standpoint, I fail to see how any maker could make this a full time job.  To me, this is a labor of love.

Hi Tony. Have you ever noticed those making saws for profit generally have very basic designs preformed on some type of CNC. Some days I would like to have a CNC but it is hard to justify when it can not complete the operation other that cutting a basic blank out and I have yet to see a CNC that can do what a set of hands and a few hand tools can do.  As far as slotted vs folded backs they both have their pros and cons. I had experimented with stainless folded backs some years back, but my modified 30 ton press turned out to not be strong enough. It will do 260 brass and alloy steel, but not as consistently as I would like. So maybe now that I am retired I can play with that a little more. Who knows? I figured out years ago I would not make a profit as what little bit of money I get always goes back into the saws in some way. As far as a labor of love.....depends on the day.

[Tony Z]

Ron: come to my plant and have your choice of CNC’s!

I have a brake for maintenance projects only, but I would be hesitant to work with stainless, as well as certain other ferrous and non-ferrous metals. Then again, the attractiveness of folded backs is to high production (as you mentioned).

In our shops, how many here have damaged saw plates, so as to need “fussing to fix”, that a fold back would give? I bet very few, if any.

[TraditionalToolworks]

You may remember Johnny..I have forgotten his last name, but he used to restore planes etc for fellows here on woodnet..He had an old South Bend 9a also..and he made and sold split nuts and screws..He like making and repairing tools and machines of all types. He was a wealth of knowledge..Last time I saw him was at an MWTCA tool meet in Tifton Ga.years ago.

Johnny Kleso, his now defunct site used to be Rexmill.com, yes, he is in Georgia. It was him and you that had an influence on me in the early days to even venture into metalworking, I knew nothing about it, it was out of making split-nuts that I learned how and ended up buying my own 9A because of that.

Of course I remember Johnny, I own a #7 that he restored for me, works great. Like saws, you need to know how to sharpen your blade. Do we see a pattern here?


Also, Johnny sold me my first split-nuts before I could make them. I did make my first split-nuts on my 9A. Later a local machinist taught me on his lathe/mill and another local guy helped me build the first aluminum jig I used to slot the back. This is my '46 9A that came out of the Levi Stauss factory in San Francisco when it closed, but I bought it around 2004-2005 from him, he used it very little in a auto shop.

   

   

You may know of a Youtube woman machinist who is quite talented...Goes by the handle of Blondihacks...She uses a lathe that if I were younger I would buy..She also has a mill of the same brand..They are the very best of all the imports...Name is Precision Matthews. Check out her videos.

Yes, as a matter of fact I have met Quinn and we don't get along. I mentioned previously that most of us would get along, but occasionally when someone is so myopic that they cannot offer a view to someone that differs from them, so be it. I believe she came from Canada, and works for a gaming company in L.A., but not certain, this was a couple years ago at the 2020 Barz Bash in SoCal. I program in Embedded Linux mostly. I've been around high tech for a fair amount of time, going on 40 years...I am pretty opinionated. I do not accept any cancel culture. Quinn is fairly new to the YT community. She's a very nice person and I used to follow and watch here, I like her DIY attitude to fix her little mill and lathe, she's talented. I wish she wasn't so myopic.


I am more friendly with some of the older folks like Tom Lipton (oxtools), ChuckB (outsidescrewball), Randy Richard in the shop, Ray's Garage, Razer Ray, that crowd of NorCal folks. We have meetups of our own, but the pandemic tossed a monkey wrench into things. Most of us meet at the BarZ Bash at Stan Zinkowski's in June timeframe...last year was odd due to the pandemic and I didn't go down there.

My full size lathes are both old...one is a South Bend 9A, vintage 1948 and the other is a Myford Super Seven.

I've never used a Myford, but from what people say they're better than a South Bend.

This is my main lathe, it's a 1963 Rivett 1020F, considered one of the finest toolroom lathes built in America, about 50 percent heavier than a Monarch 10EE and as accurate. I know my woodworking style is not kosher per this forum, but I like to dimension my timber with machines, do most of the processing and get it to a rough sizes, then I use all hand tools to do the joinery and assembly. I just don't have the patience to dimension with hand tools, no offense meant.




If you're bored, check out my VintageMachinery page. You'll see I also have 2 South Bend 10Ls (Heavy 10), the one with D1-4 camlock and hardened ways is going to my new shop, and eventually I'll move my Rivett there when I full retire. I'm just gonna take the '58 Heavy 10 (same year as me) and my Nichols horizontal mill w/vertical head attachment. Mostly new shop is getting woodworking machines. I'm driving up to my property to meet a grader/septic contractor that I believe can to all the final grading I'll need for encroachment and 30x40 shop. I plan to use half of the basement in the house for my handtool work. Have a 10' split-top workbench planned for that.

One last thing I would like to add, I know people here don't like any powered machines, but if you could only have one machine, one like this would be it. I have not mastered the skill of being a sawyer yet, but with this machine you turn trees into furniture. While I'm not an expert metalworker either, I have also learned that metal doesn't grow on trees!

[Timberwolf]

Johnny Kleso, his now defunct site used to be Rexmill.com, yes, he is in Georgia. It was him and you that had an influence on me in the early days to even venture into metalworking, I knew nothing about it, it was out of making split-nuts that I learned how and ended up buying my own 9A because of that.

Of course I remember Johnny, I own a #7 that he restored for me, works great. Like saws, you need to know how to sharpen your blade. Do we see a pattern here?


Also, Johnny sold me my first split-nuts before I could make them. I did make my first split-nuts on my 9A. Later a local machinist taught me on his lathe/mill and another local guy helped me build the first aluminum jig I used to slot the back. This is my '46 9A that came out of the Levi Stauss factory in San Francisco when it closed, but I bought it around 2004-2005 from him, he used it very little in a auto shop.




Yes, as a matter of fact I have met Quinn and we don't get along. I mentioned previously that most of us would get along, but occasionally when someone is so myopic that they cannot offer a view to someone that differs from them, so be it. I believe she came from Canada, and works for a gaming company in L.A., but not certain, this was a couple years ago at the 2020 Barz Bash in SoCal. I program in Embedded Linux mostly. I've been around high tech for a fair amount of time, going on 40 years...I am pretty opinionated. I do not accept any cancel culture. Quinn is fairly new to the YT community. She's a very nice person and I used to follow and watch here, I like her DIY attitude to fix her little mill and lathe, she's talented. I wish she wasn't so myopic.


I am more friendly with some of the older folks like Tom Lipton (oxtools), ChuckB (outsidescrewball), Randy Richard in the shop, Ray's Garage, Razer Ray, that crowd of NorCal folks. We have meetups of our own, but the pandemic tossed a monkey wrench into things. Most of us meet at the BarZ Bash at Stan Zinkowski's in June timeframe...last year was odd due to the pandemic and I didn't go down there.

I've never used a Myford, but from what people say they're better than a South Bend.

This is my main lathe, it's a 1963 Rivett 1020F, considered one of the finest toolroom lathes built in America, about 50 percent heavier than a Monarch 10EE and as accurate. I know my woodworking style is not kosher per this forum, but I like to dimension my timber with machines, do most of the processing and get it to a rough sizes, then I use all hand tools to do the joinery and assembly. I just don't have the patience to dimension with hand tools, no offense meant.




If you're bored, check out my VintageMachinery page. You'll see I also have 2 South Bend 10Ls (Heavy 10), the one with D1-4 camlock and hardened ways is going to my new shop, and eventually I'll move my Rivett there when I full retire. I'm just gonna take the '58 Heavy 10 (same year as me) and my Nichols horizontal mill w/vertical head attachment. Mostly new shop is getting woodworking machines. I'm driving up to my property to meet a grader/septic contractor that I believe can to all the final grading I'll need for encroachment and 30x40 shop. I plan to use half of the basement in the house for my handtool work. Have a 10' split-top workbench planned for that.

One last thing I would like to add, I know people here don't like any powered machines, but if you could only have one machine, one like this would be it. I have not mastered the skill of being a sawyer yet, but with this machine you turn trees into furniture. While I'm not an expert metalworker either, I have also learned that metal doesn't grow on trees!

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I think you and I would get along just fine, Allan..I am and have always been open to new ideas...There's nothing that man has ever made that couldn't be improved in some way...You can bet that the old craftsmen/artists would have gladly welcomed machines that could make the jobs easier....They didn't always do things by hand if machines were available and could do it faster and just as well. They were trying to make a living...It wasn't a hobby to them..

I spend lots of time on Youtube watching many of the folks you mentioned..My favorite is mrpete222...I like his "old tyme" delivery..his Midwest accent and the way he explains things..Reminds me of some of the old machinists that I worked with as a teen ager.

You are going to have a fantastic shop and I would love to see photos and maybe even a short video of it...We live in a wonderful age now and it is getting even better, with the innernet, Youtube etc..I think Johnny's "threading on the lathe" video is still out there after all these years!!!!..Guys like you help keep these old machines alive, so we don't forget where we came from..They have a story to tell....We all need to be reminded of that once in awhile..

[TraditionalToolworks]

I think you and I would get along just fine

I'm certain we would as I would with most folks here, if we were in person. But I know my personality is not something that everyone likes. I can be honest and terse and many people don't like to hear that type of stuff. I also hold grudges forever, so people that I have conflicts with I tend not to forget forever. Bob Smalzer is a case in point. I have learned an amazing amount of stuff from him in the past, even I remember him having some Fine Woodworking articles in the yearly shazam issue, whatever they called it. Anyway, Bob was just not willing to accept a differing opinion, and that is what it gets down to. Same with guys like George Wilson, no tolerance for braggarts who obfuscate who built/created what work and/or what was his. He has always attacked my character, so I have nothing good to say about him unfortunately. These types of grudges have me spout out comments that others, certainly on this forum, take offensively. I'm no angel.

You can bet that the old craftsmen/artists would have gladly welcomed machines that could make the jobs easier....They didn't always do things by hand if machines were available and could do it faster and just as well. They were trying to make a living...It wasn't a hobby to them..

Exactly. More so, if you think about how we used pit saws, it wasn't something that one person could do, so it was emerging into automation, and this has always fascinated me. From the 1st phase of the industrial revolution, England automated textiles, but the 2nd phase was were America flexed our muscle...we changed the world like never before.

Shortly after pit saws and such, line shafts moved into the picture and this is really where machines and automation started to take place.

All this time Disston was becoming the megalomaniac of his day, becoming the wealthiest man in America, off selling handsaws! He leveraged pre-automation days to sell handsaws. And rightfully so, with dimensional timber you can build a house with a handsaw and a hammer. Previous you would need to do like me, use logs, and it's heavy and difficult to do. I have a concept to build timber frame using cants that are 16' - 20' in length, way easier for a single person to do by themselves, no forklift is really needed, but not like moving toothpicks around. Still, with a sawmill you can turn trees into a home much easier than building with full size logs.

My shop is a stick frame E building, so it's energy efficient and uses fire resistant Hardiboard for the outside. I will be able to drive my forklift with 10' mast in/out of the shop to move machines and/or timber around, as well as use it for the sawmill. With hydraulics on the sawmill, it's not easy to saw correctly to get the best quality wood. Quartersawn wood is not easy to do correctly, hence all the people on YT who just flitch the logs and sell/use slab material, even if they dimension it...(Matt Cremona is a case in point). Being a sawyer is a skill to master, IMO.

[wmickley]

In England the guys who did pit sawing burned down the saw mills for over a hundred years.

[Timberwolf]

I'm certain we would as I would with most folks here, if we were in person. But I know my personality is not something that everyone likes. I can be honest and terse and many people don't like to hear that type of stuff. I also hold grudges forever, so people that I have conflicts with I tend not to forget forever. Bob Smalzer is a case in point. I have learned an amazing amount of stuff from him in the past, even I remember him having some Fine Woodworking articles in the yearly shazam issue, whatever they called it. Anyway, Bob was just not willing to accept a differing opinion, and that is what it gets down to. Same with guys like George Wilson, no tolerance for braggarts who obfuscate who built/created what work and/or what was his. He has always attacked my character, so I have nothing good to say about him unfortunately. These types of grudges have me spout out comments that others, certainly on this forum, take offensively. I'm no angel.

Exactly. More so, if you think about how we used pit saws, it wasn't something that one person could do, so it was emerging into automation, and this has always fascinated me. From the 1st phase of the industrial revolution, England automated textiles, but the 2nd phase was were America flexed our muscle...we changed the world like never before.

Shortly after pit saws and such, line shafts moved into the picture and this is really where machines and automation started to take place.

All this time Disston was becoming the megalomaniac of his day, becoming the wealthiest man in America, off selling handsaws! He leveraged pre-automation days to sell handsaws. And rightfully so, with dimensional timber you can build a house with a handsaw and a hammer. Previous you would need to do like me, use logs, and it's heavy and difficult to do. I have a concept to build timber frame using cants that are 16' - 20' in length, way easier for a single person to do by themselves, no forklift is really needed, but not like moving toothpicks around. Still, with a sawmill you can turn trees into a home much easier than building with full size logs.

My shop is a stick frame E building, so it's energy efficient and uses fire resistant Hardiboard for the outside. I will be able to drive my forklift with 10' mast in/out of the shop to move machines and/or timber around, as well as use it for the sawmill. With hydraulics on the sawmill, it's not easy to saw correctly to get the best quality wood. Quartersawn wood is not easy to do correctly, hence all the people on YT who just flitch the logs and sell/use slab material, even if they dimension it...(Matt Cremona is a case in point). Being a sawyer is a skill to master, IMO.

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I have long ago bought in to the theory that "it's not ALWAYS WHAT you say but HOW you say it" that matters. That's where the written word fails miserably..like here on the forum..there's no substitute for eyeball to eyeball, verbal communication..a person speaks volumes with his hands, facial expressions, tone of voice, eye contact and other body language. I have watched enemies being made on this forum..{even threatening bodily harm} because of what they typed...it wasn't what they "meant" to convey.....Always best to give a person a way to "save face"...
...Have to "give a little" to "get a little".....

Back to the subject tho...I was wondering if you had ever been to the American Precision Museum in Windsor Vt. I went there a few years ago and could have easily spent the day there..They have the very first Bridgeport Mill..Bridgeport #1, like the day it came off the line!!!! A fascinating place for metalheads, inventors etc.....The building dates back to the early 1800's. Used primarily as an armory in the beginning.

https://americanprecision.org/

[Derek Cohen]

I have long ago bought in to the theory that "it's not ALWAYS WHAT you say but HOW you say it" that matters. That's where the written word fails miserably..like here on the forum..there's no substitute for eyeball to eyeball, verbal communication..a person speaks volumes with his hands, facial expressions, tone of voice, eye contact and other body language. I have watched enemies being made on this forum..{even threatening bodily harm} because of what they typed...it wasn't what they "meant" to convey.....Always best to give a person a way to "save face"...
Big Grin...Have to "give a little" to "get a little".....

Jack, I wholeheartedly agree with you. 

It is unfortunate that the tone of disagreement can come across as more severe and restrictive than intended. Also, in the haste to offer some helpful information, one can across as critical and dismissive of the original effort made.

My rule is never criticise or put down a new tool someone has purchased. It is their pride and joy. 

Similarly, avoid making it appear that yours is the only true way - while it may be indeed better, not only are there so many way to achieve a goal, but the enthusiasm and self-esteem of novices and skilled alike must be protected. 

We may never know the circumstances of those posting. George Wilson, whom you mention, is in my opinion one of the great artists and craftsmen of recent times. I have had quite a bit of private contact with George, and really appreciated his views, opinion and support. I like to think of George as a friend. For all this he is human and can come across as impatient or opinionated on fori. He certainly has earned the right to be opinionated, and he always backed up his views with examples of his own work (which cannot be said for some). George also has been in ill health and pain so some years, which is why he no longer posts on forums. 

Regards from Perth

Derek