saw making

[CStan]

The Thomas Pax 1776 saw from Amazon is $50 more than Highland Woodworking sells it.

I always thought it strange that Colonial Williamsburg used modern machinery to make reproductions of tools supposedly used in the colonies.  I would have thought their toolmakers would demonstrate how those were make back in the day.  So the saws they were selling were no more authentic than Mike Wenzloff's Seaton series.  If anything, they were better because the tools they used to create them held better tolerances than colonial methods and the steel is higher quality.

I remember Roy Underhill quitting Colonial Williamsburg because he thought they were creating some things that weren't authentic to colonial times.  They wanted him to create slaves' quarters to look shoddy, which wasn't authentic.

Not surprisingly Amazon pops up first in a search.  I think they pay for that to happen.  

[TraditionalToolworks]

Forums are funny things as some that post communicate far better than others and some are held in higher regard than some that have more depth.

I couldn't agree more. Me and you have had plenty of good conversations in private mail, I have never had any huge disputes with you over simple questions or even differences in how we think. You have always shown to be the gentleman.

Can somebody elucidate what it was George and his group were doing that was substantively different than English firms were doing continuously for 300+ years up through the early 1980s and later?  I'm not really seeing it.

I can't and I would also like to know what is better about those saws than the ones Wenzloff, Taran, Bontz, Pedder, Lunn, Skelton, et al have made? If I was to trust a craftsman to make me what I wanted, would I deal with some nasty mean old man that's bitter with the world, or would I deal with one of these folks that I feel would fit a handle to my hand and/or make me the type of saw I was looking for? George would most likely only make you the saw he believe is perfect for you, no matter what any of us think as craftsmen for ourselves. You would get a decent tool either way, but even if I was to create a sub par handsaw, I'd take one that I build myself over any of the others I have/use, even ones that Wenzloff made for me or vintage ones I use.

I always thought it strange that Colonial Williamsburg used modern machinery to make reproductions of tools supposedly used in the colonies.  I would have thought their toolmakers would demonstrate how those were make back in the day.  So the saws they were selling were no more authentic than Mike Wenzloff's Seaton series.  If anything, they were better because the tools they used to create them held better tolerances than colonial methods and the steel is higher quality.

I completely agree with you, if I am following your correctly. I thought it strange to create period correct tools with modern Chinesium machines. I have gone out of my way to gather and own vintage industrial machines, in many cases I have needed to fix broken gears or castings, stuff like that because many are taken out of service due to a crash and/or breakage. And the machines I own were not around in the 1800s. So if you wanted to really reproduce period correct tools, why not make them the same way? 1000s if not millions of handsaws were made before machines were created to do similar work.

I remember Roy Underhill quitting Colonial Williamsburg because he thought they were creating some things that weren't authentic to colonial times.  They wanted him to create slaves' quarters to look shoddy, which wasn't authentic.

I am a stickler to make an effort not to call log homes, log cabins, mainly because it was associated with Uncle Tom's Cabin. B.Allan Mackie (R.I.P.) was one of the great Canadian log craftsmen that taught so many people, and I've learned plenty from his books. He never used the word "cabin" in regard to a log home, mainly due to the history with Uncle Tom's Cabin and the slaves. I try to never do it either.

I'm not trying to argue or debate with any of you, only trying to hold a rational conversation about such topics. This is yet another problem with what Tony points out above about Forums. We can all believe who we want and nobody needs to believe anything I say.

[wmickley]

There are an awful lot of weird notions in this thread. I knew George Wilson when he used to run the instrument maker shop. That was almost forty years ago. I think I knew Jon Laubach as well. 

Williamsburg was able to borrow the Seaton Chest and make drawings of the tools. George's shop, which was not usually open to the public, made saws to replace 19th century saws that were in use in the historic trades. There are quite a few trades besides the cabinetmakers that use saws, like joiners, carpenters, coopers, wheelwrights, etc. Most of the saws were sent to the trades.

One of my friends who knew Wilson and Laubach visited them while they were making saws and would certainly have bought one if they were available. Instead they gave him a plate and a back and fasteners so he could make his own. Some stuff made by George was given to dignitaries like presidents and other heads of state, retiring board members and maybe high dollar donors. A few of the saws may have been used for these purposes; they were not for sale.

I think in the late 18th century sawmakers used large grindstones driven by waterwheels. The Williamsburg area was too flat for a water driven mill.

Henry Disston started his business in 1840 when he was 21. That was 65 years after the time portrayed by Williamsburg.

[john jesseph]

Seems like there’s a fundamental misunderstanding of Colonial Williamsburg’s mission and function here. It’s clearly an internet based, online forum based set of lenses I feel you are viewing George and CW through. I have some pics on my computer at home of several saws from CW from the early and mid 2000s. Maybe good for a different thread at a later time.

[AHill]

Seems like there’s a fundamental misunderstanding of Colonial Williamsburg’s mission and function here. It’s clearly an internet based, online forum based set of lenses I feel you are viewing George and CW through. I have some pics on my computer at home of several saws from CW from the early and mid 2000s. Maybe good for a different thread at a later time.

Can you expand on this?  What should be the understanding of Colonial Williamsburg's mission and function - especially in the context of this thread?

[john jesseph]

Particularly that in the living history museum portion, they are somehow constrained to use items and implements made in the method they speculate things were made in that time period.

They are focused on Williamsburg history. Beyond that, historical accuracy and practicality need to find common ground.

[CStan]

I'm not so sure the saws and other tools they were making/trying to copy weren't available at your average weekend British car boot sale in the 1970s. Probably were and for cheap, too. And more authentic in more ways than not.

It was the bit about the boxwood rules that really got me thinking. They must have been made in the tens of thousands in England and for 150++ years. They're ubiquitous. A UK EBay search on any given day will turn up dozens of them. I could replace mine with ease, and it's pretty damned old. Whatever challenges in their making were solved over a 100 years ago.

[john jesseph]

I wonder who from Williamsburg in the 70s would fly to England and go flea marketing to find saws, rules, etc for the Trades in the historic area? It’s an interesting thought experiment to ponder that scenario. Maybe I’m confusing your point. I don’t get it.

[TraditionalToolworks]

I wonder who from Williamsburg in the 70s would fly to England and go flea marketing to find saws, rules, etc for the Trades in the historic area? It’s an interesting thought experiment to ponder that scenario. Maybe I’m confusing your point. I don’t get it.

Why would you fly to England, there were a ton of English saws in America at that time.

But the saws George is pictured with are not built in the 70s.

So what is your comment in regard to building saws at the time they were crafted? I bought many English saws that work perfectly fine during the era those saws were built. Maybe I'm missing something.

If the concept of Williamsburg is to reenact the colonial times, building with imported machines is an embarrassment to the folks pushing that agenda. Those machines were not even built yet if you go back to the 70s. He purchased Grizzly machines.

Hope you don't take my comments wrong John, just trying to hold a rational conversation about it, which was never possible with George, he was too busy insulting people's character which raise a lot of suspicion on what really happened at Williamsburg. There were many great craftsmen at Williamsburg, as I mentioned, Wallace Gusler, he didn't treat people like George did, and AFAIK is a very well respected craftsman.

I would really like to know what is better about the Williamsburg saws that Skelton, Bontz, Two Lawyers, et al, who would create a custom handle to fit your hand with any type of wood you like. After all our tools are personal for all of us. I could use even the cheapest of gent saws and do good work, and will not blame the tool if I don't. Sure, I like to use my own saws best, but I have a lot that I use in my working quiver.

[CStan]

I wonder who from Williamsburg in the 70s would fly to England and go flea marketing to find saws, rules, etc for the Trades in the historic area? It’s an interesting thought experiment to ponder that scenario. Maybe I’m confusing your point. I don’t get it.

Apparently struggling to reproduce tools that had been mass produced for at least 150 years, and were sold on a routine basis on weekends at car boot sales for next to nothing.

That's my point.

Somebody needed a friend in England.

Granted, you had to do something to earn the check that was issued religiously on the 1st and 15th.

As others have said, George is a prick. A full-on jerk. He never had anything nice to say about any of his fellow craftsman at CW, at least based on his forum postings.

There are better toolmakers, there are better guitar makers, and there are better harpsichord makers. He's a legend in his own mind.