Moxon Vise

[Tapper]

Now that you remind me, I have seen some pics where the hex nut was "let in" to the rear board. Some just did a tight fit and some expoxied them in. I guess, if you plan ahead, you can use a Forstner bit slightly smaller than the flat-to-flat size of the hex nut to drill the recess before you drill the through hole. That would make the chisel work easier and also help center the 6-sided mortise on the hole for the shaft.

I have no idea how the Holtzapffel-style bench helps with sawing dovetails. Is there a height-adjustable variant of that bench?

If you watch the video, Chris intimates that his version of the bench is quite different from the original. He shows a picture of the original and it had a twin screw face vise mounted to it. In fact in Schwartz's original he built that vise (you can see two mounting screw holes still there in the front edge of the bench top) but later took it off in favor of one of Benchcrafted's leg vises.

One could definitely cut dovetails on the original twin screw face vise, albeit uncomfortably IMO.

Yes, I think mortising in the nut on the rear of the back board would be a solution. Some epoxy and "Bob's your uncle."

Doug

[Tapper]

After some thought, I'd appreciate some more discussion about the operation of the vise. As I understand it, most of these vises are designed so that the threaded rods are stationary (anchored to the rear plate) and the wheels move in and out to clamp and release the work piece.

The other alternative is to have the wheel fixed to the end of the rod (so that it doesn't spin freely) and to have it act like a large bolt, i.e. the rod moves in and out through the nut that is anchored in the rear plate.

One complaint I've read in online discussions, is that the rods sticking out the front of the vise may get in the way and make the work not as convenient when using the vise. Is this a real concern or is it a "red herring?"

Thanks,

Doug

[OneStaple]

My current configuration is as follows:

12" total length to the acme rod (many people have 8"), stationary and locked to the rear chop by two nuts, as is common.

Rod sticks out 3" past the chop when chop is fully closed. Or 1-3/4" past the handle.

I can clamp something slightly thicker than 1-3/4".

There is 4-1/2" of extra rod behind the vise that I can utilize on rare occasions when I want to clamp something thicker (that'd only be 1/2" for someone using a 8" rod).

The 3" protrusion has not been an issue at all, while working or walking past. It's really not that much, and in my opinion, all the hardware looks bigger in sales pictures than in person. If it were in the middle of a narrow walking path, them maybe there would be a problem.

My concern with the wheel fixed to the rod is the slop that you might have when tightening something down. There will be a slight amount of slop due to the thread clearance between the floating rod and the captured nut. When the wheel is tightened down, I imagine that it could encourage the front chop to shift up slightly, potentially moving the work piece too. In many cases, that might not matter, but I wouldn't want it to happen when trying to carefully lay out dovetails. I'd be interested if anyone has experienced that.

And, for what it's worth, the face of my rear chop is bare so it can maintain 90 degrees to the top, while my front chop has crubber for grip. So a shift in the front chop would make things move.

Tyler

[OneStaple]

Thinking about it more, that concern of movement on the front chop that I stated is probably overblown, assuming you're using decent quality hardware. I'd still be interested in opinions from people that have used that style.

I have no reason to change my current approach if I were to build another and am quite satisfied with it.

Tyler

[TraditionalToolworks]

One complaint I've read in online discussions, is that the rods sticking out the front of the vise may get in the way and make the work not as convenient when using the vise. Is this a real concern or is it a "red herring?"

I think it's a red herring in the sense that most work being done in the Moxon is to work on the edges of a board, and the majority of people cut dovetails with them. If you only work on panels with a thickness of 3/4", or even 2", you only need the thickness of your material plus the thickness of the front board of the Moxon.

The length of the screw sticking out the front is arbitrary based on each individual's needs. These days people see a tool and want to make the same. Especially if someone is willing to share how they created it. That takes some of the guesswork out of it, hopefully, or needed to design their/my own.

There are other ways to use a Roubo style leg vise to accomplish the same thing. As an example,  jam a board into the crochet, clamp it with the leg vise, and use the sliding deadman to secure the other end. Now work on the edge facing up. You can do this with long Bessy style clamps from the rear of the top to the front where a board can be secured.

For me, at the end of the day it's all about clamping options, how useful can the bench be? Split-Top offers more options, tail vise does as well, even holdfasts can solve a lot.

Take the English Nicholson bench, it has a large apron on the front for holdfast use. You can secure boards and work on the edges to cut dovetails on that bench using holdfasts.

The Moxon is a great accessory for people that need another way to secure their panels to cut dovetails, but there are other ways also.

Not sure if you have ever tried to cut the end of a 8' board with dovetails. You won't be using a Moxon, or a twin screw type face vise for that matter, unless you can saw up at 8' tall...so there are specific situations where we need to get a bit more creative than being able to cut a dovetail with our board secured solid level at a height each of us is the most comfortable with. The real work is not always like that, but a twin screw and/or Moxon can cover most of the requirements for the majority of work. A set of pipe clamps can work on most any bench as well. How many dovetails will you be needing to cut with it, or how much work will you have for it once it is built? That could determine how pressing your need is to build one.

[Tapper]

Thoughtful comments from both of you, Tyler and Alan - thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have never tried cutting dovetails in the end of an 8' board. My home project work is probably pretty ordinary; nothing exotic. The vise is not something that will be used on a regular basis, meaning I won't be down in the shop chopping dovetails every day, i.e. will be project driven.

From the comments and suggestions thus far, I'm leaning towards the cast iron wheels that spin on the shafts with Acme threads. Having longer rods (12" or so) seems to have benefits and no downside since you can stick the extra length out of the rear when it's not needed. I have more white oak scrap than anything else so that may be the material by default. It is a very heavy and dense wood however, so will probably not as convenient to move around as something lighter.

I do have some pretty dense 2x straight grain repurposed fir that has been squirreled away for some time now that might work (comments welcome on that one). It will be a while before I can build this vise as there are several projects in line ahead of it.

Another question I have is the method used to "capture" the rod in the rear jaw of the vise. I've looked at several vises online but if they have the crubber material on the faces, it prevents seeing the installation method used. I was thinking a threaded, flanged sleeve mortised in the face of the rear vise jaw, flush with the surface might work.

Doug

[TraditionalToolworks]

I have never tried cutting dovetails in the end of an 8' board.

It's not something I do all the time, but it was something I did early on in my dovetail education.

   

From the comments and suggestions thus far, I'm leaning towards the cast iron wheels that spin on the shafts with Acme threads. Having longer rods (12" or so) seems to have benefits and no downside since you can stick the extra length out of the rear when it's not needed.

Exactly, if you go out the rear, you don't have the interference, in that case you could have 24" screws without much impact, other than needed the rear space on the workbench. Essentially you have the handle or wheel security attached to the screw, and it is secured to the front board of the Moxon. The screw turns as the wheel turns. As you tighten/loosen the front board opens or closes. The rear jaw holds the nut and you secure it into the rear jaw, The one problem I tried to elude to above is that you now have 2 screws being tightened loosened manually, so they can get out of sync. This is why the LV twin-screw used a chain, that way both screws turn at the same time and therefor stay in sync, keeping the front board parallel to clamp flush against the face of the board facing towards the front.

I have more white oak scrap than anything else so that may be the material by default.

Oak is good material, I like to work it and I especially like when he is quartersawn and/or has ray fleck. The one thing I am not crazy of for certain applications, but it's not a big deal and that is that it's open grain, so the surface is typically not 100% flat. I like that for some stuff, and other oak flushes up nice and flat, so all oak is not created equal. I tend to use a lot of wood combination to create either color or physical character that you can feel with your hands. Greene & Greene Art's and Crafts, or shall I say the Hall Bros. All of those splines and plugs, soft edge box joints, the stuff was sanded super smooth and just feels so nice to run your hand on...that is as much of the style as the looks, IMO.

It is a very heavy and dense wood however, so will probably not as convenient to move around as something lighter.

I prefer the heaviest, most dense hardware I have unless it's determined by weight or cost. Often hardwards, and especially the exotic types I prefer to work with when I can are costly, so in the case of paneling my work area walls, using a softwood such as pine will save enormous amounts of coin. The concept is just working within our means. I love looking at the knots on pine, not sure if that's how I come up with some of the obscure thoughts I do or not, but I do.

Another question I have is the method used to "capture" the rod in the rear jaw of the vise. I've looked at several vises online but if they have the crubber material on the faces, it prevents seeing the installation method used. I was thinking a threaded, flanged sleeve mortised in the face of the rear vise jaw, flush with the surface might work.

Yes, that's pretty much as it's done, the nut will be secured in the rear jaw, the front jaw will be secure to the wheel and the screw can float in a hole through the front jaw and turns as the wheel is turned. As it turns the front jaw opens or closes in turn.

[Tapper]

It's not something I do all the time, but it was something I did early on in my dovetail education.



Exactly, if you go out the rear, you don't have the interference, in that case you could have 24" screws without much impact, other than needed the rear space on the workbench. Essentially you have the handle or wheel security attached to the screw, and it is secured to the front board of the Moxon. The screw turns as the wheel turns. As you tighten/loosen the front board opens or closes. The rear jaw holds the nut and you secure it into the rear jaw, The one problem I tried to elude to above is that you now have 2 screws being tightened loosened manually, so they can get out of sync. This is why the LV twin-screw used a chain, that way both screws turn at the same time and therefor stay in sync, keeping the front board parallel to clamp flush against the face of the board facing towards the front.

Oak is good material, I like to work it and I especially like when he is quartersawn and/or has ray fleck. The one thing I am not crazy of for certain applications, but it's not a big deal and that is that it's open grain, so the surface is typically not 100% flat. I like that for some stuff, and other oak flushes up nice and flat, so all oak is not created equal. I tend to use a lot of wood combination to create either color or physical character that you can feel with your hands. Greene & Greene Art's and Crafts, or shall I say the Hall Bros. All of those splines and plugs, soft edge box joints, the stuff was sanded super smooth and just feels so nice to run your hand on...that is as much of the style as the looks, IMO.

I prefer the heaviest, most dense hardware I have unless it's determined by weight or cost. Often hardwards, and especially the exotic types I prefer to work with when I can are costly, so in the case of paneling my work area walls, using a softwood such as pine will save enormous amounts of coin. The concept is just working within our means. I love looking at the knots on pine, not sure if that's how I come up with some of the obscure thoughts I do or not, but I do.


Yes, that's pretty much as it's done, the nut will be secured in the rear jaw, the front jaw will be secure to the wheel and the screw can float in a hole through the front jaw and turns as the wheel is turned. As it turns the front jaw opens or closes in turn.

Tapper said:

"From the comments and suggestions thus far, I'm leaning towards the cast iron wheels that spin on the shafts with Acme threads."


You may have misinterpreted what I said. I'm leaning towards NOT securing the wheels to the shaft, i.e. the wheels will spin on the shafts, just like the ones in Derek Cohen's photos.

I watched a video last night with a lady woodworker making a Moxon vise. She did a very nice job of mortising the nut into the face of the rear jaw; then it was secured with a nut and washer on the back. This seems to be the best setup to me. It is easy enough to loosen up the hardware and extend the threaded rods further out the rear out of the way when you don't need the width of the opening, and reverse it when you do.

Another thing she did that has been recommended in several articles I've read, is to elongate the holes in the front jaw. This allows the jaw to slide more freely on the shafts and also provides for clamping angled objects if necessary. Comments welcome on that one also.

Going to take another look at that straight-grained fir. Can always change later if I don't like it.

Doug

[Derek Cohen]

Doug, that is what I did:

Morticed the nut into the back, and secured the screw with another nut at the rear. The enables the screw to be set to whatever extension one prefers. The bronze sleeves run with some slop. It they did not, the screws would bind.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tapper]

Derek, looking at your build on your web site I thought that's what you had done. I may have overlooked it but what is the thickness of the jaws (chops) on your vise, please? Also, did you make the front jaw a little wider (top to bottom) so that it would register against the front of your bench at the bottom?

Thanks,

Doug