Hey Wilbur!

[Gregory of Sherwood Forest]

The trip down memory lane with Al has tickled the bug again.

Several years ago, I made an attempt with a Japanese plane that I had picked up for about nothing at an estate sale. I knew nothing about them then (which isn't much less than I know now), so my journey into despondence was short, and ugly. It wasn't total, however, and a little flame of intrigue regarding Japanese planes has burned humbly within ever since.

Now, it is requesting fuel.

I'd like you to recommend a GOOD, but not overly expensive Japanese smoother to me. Something with a good, thick and wide iron that will be ready to go out of the box, maybe with a light honing being all that is needed. My sharpening skills are up to the task of any metal, so no need to tread lightly on that account.

I'm not going to throw a price range into this, but suffice it to say that I wouldn't be averse to spending about what a very capable western plane would cost new. This should be a fair range, as I'd expect Japanese tools have their own LV or LN quality price points, eh?

Go ahead, fire away. I WANT this to work. Give me a linky where I can make the purchase, await the delivery, and enjoy the success.

.

[Wilbur Pan]

Gregory of Sherwood Forest said:

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I'd like you to recommend a GOOD, but not overly expensive Japanese smoother to me. Something with a good, thick and wide iron that will be ready to go out of the box, maybe with a light honing being all that is needed. My sharpening skills are up to the task of any metal, so no need to tread lightly on that account.

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Here’s the issue with Japanese planes. They don’t come ready to go out of the box with a light honing, as Lee Valley or Lie-Nielsen planes do. They come 95% set up, with the expectation that the woodworker buying the plane will finish the set up in his/her shop. The Japanese plane that is “ready to go out of the box, maybe with a light honing being all that is needed” doesn’t exist.

The reason for this is that Japanese planes have a body made of wood and yet are capable of being set up precisely enough to take very fine shavings. In order to do this, the plane has to be acclimated to the environment it’s going to work in, and there’s almost no chance that the environment where the plane is made has the same humidity and temperatures as your shop.

Luckily, setting up a Japanese plane is not that difficult. I always say that if you can fit a mortise and tenon joint, you can set up a Japanese plane. Conditioning the sole isn’t difficult, either. If you can flatten a board, you can condition the sole of a Japanese plane.

Here’s what I’d do. Check out my writeup on setting up a Japanese plane, or this series of YouTube videos on setting up a Japanese plane (part 1, part 2, part 3) so you can get an idea of what the process is like. It won’t take as long as the length of the video, since a lot of the video is not actual time spent on setting up the plane, but on explanation. At this point, I can take a Japanese plane out of the box and get it set up in about 60 minutes, depending on how close the blade is fit.

At that point, if you still are looking to give Japanese planes a try and want one new out of the box, I’d get a 70mm Ishihisa plane from Hida Tool, which is currently $206. If you plan on mainly working with North American hardwoods, get a 60mm Ishihisa with the blade at 45º, which is abbot $245. It’s not that you can’t use a Japanese plane bedded at the typical 40º for hardwoods, but the 45º model is more forgiving. The reason for a 60mm blade is that the 45º plane is harder to pull due to the increased bed angle.

Note: the Hida Tool website lists the 45º plane as out of stock. Give them a call. They should be able to get one for you.

Alternatively, you could consider getting a Kotobuki Tsunesaburo plane from Schtoo at Tools From Japan. This would be the beginner plane I would consider, and the size/angle considerations would be the same (70mm/40º or 60mm/45º). This will be about $180-200. The main reason I recommend the Ishihisa is that I actually have and use that plane, and I haven’t used this particular Tsunesaburo plane.

Also, you could work on getting the Japanese plane you have into working order. That process is pretty much the same as setting up a new plane, except that often used Japanese planes have a body that’s moved enough that the blade sits too low. In which case, glue a shim onto the bed so that the blade now sits high, and then proceed as if you’re setting up a plane for the first time.

P.S. I checked out how much Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen planes are going for. It’s nice to see that Japanese planes can be the value proposition.

[Window Guy]

Wilbur very nice write up, I really enjoyed it. I may have to give these planes a try myself.

Steve

[Blacky's Boy]

Wilbur Pan said:

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<snip> ...I’d get a 70mm Ishihisa plane from Hida Tool, which is currently $206. If you plan on mainly working with North American hardwoods, get a 60mm Ishihisa with the blade at 45º, which is about $245.... <snip>

<snip>Alternatively, you could consider getting a Kotobuki Tsunesaburo plane from Schtoo at Tools From Japan. This would be the beginner plane I would consider, and the size/angle considerations would be the same (70mm/40º or 60mm/45º). This will be about $180-200..... <snip>

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But, but, but,....$180,...$200,.....$245!! That's a LOT of MONEY!!!



darn,....I thought I could resist....! I'm so weak!

[DaveParkis]

Blacky's Boy said:

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[blockquote]Wilbur Pan said:

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<snip> ...I’d get a 70mm Ishihisa plane from Hida Tool, which is currently $206. If you plan on mainly working with North American hardwoods, get a 60mm Ishihisa with the blade at 45º, which is about $245.... <snip>

<snip>Alternatively, you could consider getting a Kotobuki Tsunesaburo plane from Schtoo at Tools From Japan. This would be the beginner plane I would consider, and the size/angle considerations would be the same (70mm/40º or 60mm/45º). This will be about $180-200..... <snip>

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But, but, but,....$180,...$200,.....$245!! That's a LOT of MONEY!!!



darn,....I thought I could resist....! I'm so weak!

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[/blockquote]

I was thinking the same darn thing.

[Gregory of Sherwood Forest]

Why am I not surprised that it was Dominic and Parkis that went there first???

Thanks for the write-up, Wilbur. I've checked out the setup info a few times since I first saw it, and will follow it to the letter. I'm thinking that I may go with the 70mm in the 45°. I don't think I'll have a problem with the added resistance.
MrsForest is looking for a birthday gift idea for me, and I think I'll drop this in her lap. She may be able to get me this and a nice set of Koyamaichi chisels. After all, $200 isn't a lot of money... for quality tools.

[Wilbur Pan]

Gregory of Sherwood Forest said:

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I'm thinking that I may go with the 70mm in the 45°. I don't think I'll have a problem with the added resistance.

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I’ll say this one more time, because I won’t be able to sleep well tonight if I don’t tell you this again.

Trust me, if you’re getting a Japanese plane with a 45º bed angle, go with a 60mm blade. A 70mm plane blade is wider than the blade in a Stanley 4-1/2. A 60mm will be only a little narrower than that. And that will be plenty wide for smoothing purposes.

[Gregory of Sherwood Forest]

Okay, I'm inclined to go with your suggestions, but I will ask for a bit of clarification.

Please understand that I'm not trying to throw these questions out due to some 'machismo' factor, or for some psychological overcompensation. I'm asking because of preferences that I've learned and results that I've actually obtained from the use of western handtools. I'm 6'4", 240 lbs, and have really big hands. I'm not a giant, and I'm sure that there are plenty of guys on this forum who are larger and may have the same point of reference as I do and may have similar questions regarding their use of Japanese planes. I do plane using the strength from my lower body, so I think I'm on target, technique-wise. As an MD (though your patients are small, and much cuter), I know that you can view this aspect with an eye towards ergonomics.

First off, does the size of the plane in width and angle feel different to people of different size? I'm asking because I know that strength does matter in the use of handtools, as the need for force hampers accuracy, but greater strength means that more accuracy can be derived given that all other factors remain the same. Similarly, greater strength can obtain equal accuracy, overcoming higher resistance. In motorsports, it's known as the horsepower to weight ratio. In pugilism, the phrase "there's a reason why there are weight divisions", is apropos.

Additionally, since the body of a Japanese plane IS the handle, perhaps the greater width can be more comfortable to a person with larger hands? in the use of western handplanes, I prefer the larger diameter knobs and have made thicker totes, for comfort in use.

I've handled Japanese planes and find that the wider ones feel more comfortable, especially when I use the alternative grip and wrap both hands around the back of the plane and exert downforce with my palms and thumbpads. The standard grip you use in the video is only marginally more comfortable for me.

Should I try to get used to the narrower ones, instead of using what is comfortable despite having to exert a bit more force even though that force is easily controlled?

I definitely don't want to sacrifice the ability to use higher iron bedding angles, so plane width seems the only customizable option to me. LV's custom totes and knobs just don't have a Japanese equivalent, that I've found. Perhaps some day I can make some for myself.

Thanks.

[Wilbur Pan]

Gregory of Sherwood Forest said:

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Should I try to get used to the narrower ones, instead of using what is comfortable despite having to exert a bit more force even though that force is easily controlled?

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Although I don’t have any doubt that you can power a 70mm Japanese plane set at 45º through a cut, I think that what’s missing in this discussion is that best practice using a Japanese plane means that this is a finesse operation, not a force operation. Using western planes, I often read and hear that having a heavy plane is good because the added mass helps you power your way through the cut. That can be done with a Japanese plane, but it’s far better to not do so.

As far as comfort goes, (I’m right handed) I find the best thing to do is to use the right hand only to exert downward pressure, and use the left hand behind the blade for pulling. Most of the strength will be coming from your body and legs, as you mentioned above. The thing I have to keep an eye on myself is not slipping into using a death grip on the plane body with my right hand and pulling with that hand. That leads to discomfort much more than the width of the plane itself.

If holding a narrower plane is really that much more uncomfortable for you, go ahead and get the 70mm plane. I have average sized hands, and the difference in comfort between 60 and 70mm is minimal for me. As I mentioned above, the major factor in comfort is the technique I use, not the size of the plane. If you have bigger hands and find that the 60mm plane is too narrow for your liking, I’ll bet dollars to donuts that you are grabbing the plane with your right hand much more than you have to.

[Blacky's Boy]

Gregory of Sherwood Forest said:

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Why am I not surprised that it was Dominic and Parkis that went there first???

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Jeez, you need to ask?

It's because, despite our chronological ages, we are just 12 year old boys in mature bodies.