Question on designing built in cabinets

[®smpr_fi_mac®]

The missus has added to my honey-do list the biggest project, by far, that I've ever attempted, and will likely be the biggest ever (in surface area, at least)--a built in set of cabinets/shelving/display to cover a wall 12' wide and 7.5' high. It'll be 18" deep, per her demand.

No pressure at all.

She's already given me a rough sketch of what she wants and has sectioned it in such a manner that building it in sections and installing each piece will actually make building and installation fairly easy. The over all design gives the impression of five columns of equal width, though I'll build it differently--the center column will be one piece, while the other four columns will actually be built as four cubes, if that makes any sense.

On the top, its surface will be 16" from the ceiling--clearance for all of my kitchen gadgets (I'm the cook in the family) to sit on. Though I'm thinking of adding a fifth "level" of cabinets to match the base--for the balance and to hide the appliances; I think it'll make her happier, though I'll have to remove some of the crown molding on the ceiling to make it fit.

The other three "levels/rows" will be various in design--open shelving and cabinets. The very center "segment" will be built exclusively to display a hand made and painted Turkish bowl we bought on our honeymoon; the paint in the kitchen will be based on it, too.

On design--

Do I need a toe kick? The whole bottom "level" will be flush-mount door cabinets. Can the base of the carcass sit flat on the floor and be visually appealing, or do I *need* to incorporate a toe kick?

I have a Google Sketchup model mostly done on my home computer. I'll post it up this evening.

(edit)

I know my floors/ceilings aren't plumb or square, so I think I'll need to add my face frames after the cases are installed. This will hide any gaps, I think. Am I correct with that?

[JGrout]

I would add a kick or if you want it to look more built in then raise it up kick height then run baseboard in front of it.

The issue with cabinets sitting on an uneven floor is how to install them so they will be level. That is what a kick accomplishes; build it separate of the carcases and make adjustments in the kick it makes installing far simpler including setting the cabinet carcases and by extension the face frames.

Post your pic, there are lots of tricks that likely would simplify the build

Here is one that is about 10' wide


this one was 14' wide

both have base instead of recessed kicks



Joe

[®smpr_fi_mac®]

Thanks, Joe. I'll post up pics of the sketch I have so far this evening.

NOTHING about it is set in stone, aside from the lower level of cabinets and the center space for the bowl. Everything else can be modded as needed.

[jteneyck]

What Joe said. Here's one that's about 8' wide. It's made of two layers of 3/4" plywood. Don't use 2 x 4's because they can shrink - DAMHIK.



After I leveled it I screwed small pieces of plywood to the inside of the frame to secure it to the floor and keep it level. Then I just set the cabinets on top:



Then I fit the trim piece into place:



As for the face frames, you can do it either way. When I have a run of multiple cabinets it seems easier to fit all the pieces in the shop but not to glue them to the boxes until after the boxes have been installed. That makes scribing the outer stiles easier since I'm only handling the stile and not the whole cabinet. I like Norm's method of using biscuits to attach the face frames to the cabinets, too, as it assures the parts register the same as when I fit them in the shop. I like to pocket screw the face frames together, and you can screw and glue all the parts except those outer stiles, prior to installation. After the outer stiles have been scribed and cut to fit I pocket screw them to the rest of the face frame assembly and then install the whole thing as one big unit. The biscuits hold it in place as the glue dries and no other fasteners are required, although you can shoot a few pin nails or brads, too, to help tame a section that won't lay flat against the cabinet box. No one way works in every case, but this is the process I prefer.

John

[David Stone]

Is there a standard amount that the face frame extends beyond the panel? 1/2"?

If you want a 2" stile against the wall, do you set the cabinet 3/4" from the wall? And then a 2" stile would give you 1/2" overhang (assuming the cabinet sides are 3/4")?

[JGrout]

It varies to a certain extent

I shoot for 2" in the narrowest spot and have seen wall so far off that it could be upwards of 2 3/4" that is why I am not a fan of continuous floor to ceiling ( or nearly so) units that have to fit to a corner





this one was a good example of one that caused a lot of angst though you cannot see it the left side tapered nearly 5/8" out at the top relative to the bottom and I could not cheat the cabinet ( the ovens had to be level in the holes) ended up making the stile 3" wide and trimming to fit so the bottom oven door would open without hitting the wall when open. It was the one time I really wanted to strangle a framer for shoddy work. He of course blamed it on the guy who poured the slab

[Paul K. Murphy]

Hi Brad, it's good to see you.
I am very busy right now, and don't have much time to respond. I'll just leave you with one thing for now.
The walls, not square/not plumb situation should have no bearing on when you install face frames. None whatsoever.
When I am building face frame construction, I want very much to attach the face frames as part of manufacture, not installation. I Do not want to attach face frames after case installation. If I'm not getting to you, listen, I will move Heaven and Earth to install the face frames in the shop.
I've mentored a few people into the trade, and when this type of thing has come up, I've always made it clear that if you are going to choose to install face frames after case installation, you'd better be prepared to give me a D**n good reason. A very, very D**n good reason.
This was of course in the context where I was able to make such demands, even expected to, as a responsible "instructor." Such reasons do exist. Also, this isn't a situation where my opinion is of any more gravity than "some internet guy."
Bottom line, out of square/plumb walls mean nothing vis-a-vis not attaching face frames at the bench. I personally will not do it without very persuasive reasons.

[Paul K. Murphy]

Oh, one more thing, look at the following. If you understand, good. If you do not understand, you need to write these concepts on your DNA in letters of fire before undertaking "built-ins."
Item 1) FE,
Item 2) WE,
Item 3) FE<----cabt. here---->FE
Item 4) FE<----cabt. here---->WE
Item 5) WE<----cabt. here---->WE
Items 1 & 2 are basic concepts.
Items 3,4 & 5 are actual constructions. Item 3 is easiest. Item 5 is hardest.

[Chataigner]

+1 for building a separate plinth first to level up the floor. Watch out also for ceiling height - I've just finished a job where the ceiling sloped by 3" over a 9' run.
Note, you cant measure up from the floor if the floor is not level, you need to work from a horizontal line on the wall and measure up and down.

[Richard D.]

You only need a recessed kick if there is a countertop.