Changing electric panel????

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

OK here is the situation. I have my Mom's house that will be sold. The house was built around 1945. It had somewhat of an electrical update back around 1960. There is a 100amp service with a fuse panel. There are still 2 circuits that are knob and tube. They feed the ceiling lights in the 2 bedrooms and hall way on the first floor. These were not replaced because the walls and ceiling are plaster and in fairly good shape so the electrician left them. He was able to replace all the outlet wiring on the first floor. The second floor was new construction so it was wired to code back then. There is no outlet in the bathrooms on either floor. There is only one outlet that is near the sink on the first floor kitchen counter.

Now you have a basic picture. What seems like I must do because people are being turned off because of the knob and tube and fuse panel is change this out.

My questions are If I change the 100 amp panel and upgrade to a 150 amp service ( maybe a selling point for future air conditioning)with a breaker panel, what are the new requirements by code and please list them all. There is no ground rod on old panel, just water meter ground. Am I subject to upgrade interior wiring also such as install outlets in bathrooms and add outlet by kitchen sink??? Do I have to use ark-fault breakers now?? I now need ground rod, do I need 2 ground rods??? If so what is their location?? Can I still get away with the knob and tube or does this have to come out and if so does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can still have the overhead lights in the bedrooms and not destroy the plaster??? (This maybe wishful thinking).

Or is any of this grandfathered in because of age of house?? Are there other requirements that need to be met?? I will probably have to put a trougth next to the panel to pick up the circuits because they will not be long enough to reconnect in new panel. No slack was left in panel.

I would appreciate all the feedback I can get here. I live in NJ if that means anything. Thanks in advance.

[TDKPE]

It's all grandfathered, as long as you don't touch it. But if you do a service upgrade, you may have to update a lot of it. The grounding electrode system is a system, using the cold water pipe and (probably) two ground rods 6 ft apart [NEC 250-56], but ground rods are the least of your worries. Depending on the local Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ), you may have to install 120V smoke detectors in every bedroom, in every hallway outside a bedroom, and at least one on every floor, wired together so they all go off at once.

The kitchen and baths are way out of date, but I don't think the AHJ will try to make you update them. The K&T, though, they just may.

It's NJ. Strap on your cast iron underwear, hope for the best, and plan for the worst. You need to speak with them directly to find out what they would require, as the NEC does not have specific requirements as to what gets upgraded or brought up to code when replacing a service. That's usually up to the AHJ. When I lived in Edison, the building departments were a nightmare. Not as bad as NYC, but bad. Up here, they're really helpful and easy to work with, but I still had to wire for smokes as I mentioned above when I built my basement office.

And yes, I would think you'll be forced to use AFCI's for all of the bedrooms, and possibly more rooms, as that's how the wind is blowing these days.

But you really need to sit with them. If they'll do that. Or crack open your vault, and hire an electrician.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I figured I may have to contact the inspector before hand to see what is needed. I want to do the least amount of work. I am hoping someone is willing to take the house the way it is and does the work themselves. I am willing to negotiate a lower price because of it. never thought about 120 volt smokes and probable carbon monoxide detectors. Right now we have about 8 battery operated ones all over the house. If that required 120volts and on the same circuit it would be vertually impossible. I am pretty sure this would not be the case. I sold my aunts house about 3 years ago and all I did was add aa couple battery operated detectors and it passed a home inspection. Thanks and keep the info coming.

[TDKPE]

It's a building code thing, not an NEC thing, AFAIK. And NY isn't NJ, and way up here isn't Westchester or The City. It all depends on the local authorities. And even then, it can vary from inspector to inspector, although it shouldn't.

I was told, almost behind the head guy's hand while mumbling, that if hard-wired smokes on the same circuit weren't feasible, they would accept battery only, or non-interconnected, but they sort of let a few minor things in the framing go when I showed them the rough-in for the smokes all over the house. I had pretty much forgotten about that part until you brought it up.

[Phil S.]

Just went through the same drill with my mom's house, built in 1959. It has a 60 amp fuse box. Some time ago - 10 years? - a sub-panel was added to support the AC. We were worried FHA would require an upgrade, but it wasn't identified as an issue by their inspector and the house sold as is last month after being on the market for only a week. We were hugely relieved. Like you have determined, it likely isn't just replacing the box. Once you start it may lead to a lot of additional work and cost.

[BobbtheEE]

Wiring to difficult to access locations ( center of the ceiling ) can be accomplished with surface wiring products ( i.e. wiremold ) They are not the most attractive things in the world, but when painted the same color as the surface, they sort of blend in.

[Admiral]

Having been there and done that in NJ, your best approach is to do nothing as you are likely code compliant/grandfathered. You are running down a rabbit hole of costs that are likely not to be recovered in the sale. If you do something minimal or half way, it will be obvious to a buyer/inspector and they will want repair credits against the sale amount during the negotiation in the 3 day attorney review period. Better to sell as is and deal with it in the review period, you will end up with a lesser credit to the ultimate buyer than what you might end up spending to semi-correct the issues. If someone wants the house, some rewiring is not going to stop them; alternatively, if they don't want the house, no amount of rewiring is going to change their mind.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Admiral said:

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Having been there and done that in NJ, your best approach is to do nothing as you are likely code compliant/grandfathered. You are running down a rabbit hole of costs that are likely not to be recovered in the sale. If you do something minimal or half way, it will be obvious to a buyer/inspector and they will want repair credits against the sale amount during the negotiation in the 3 day attorney review period. Better to sell as is and deal with it in the review period, you will end up with a lesser credit to the ultimate buyer than what you might end up spending to semi-correct the issues. If someone wants the house, some rewiring is not going to stop them; alternatively, if they don't want the house, no amount of rewiring is going to change their mind.

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Yes these are my original thoughts. Am willing to negotiate.

[clockman]

Best to leave well enough alone, my mother is going to sell her 50's house next year, and she has fuses, and we are just leaving them alone. No knob and tube wiring however.