Electrical questions.

[daddo]

I'm remodeling a little rent house we own built in the 50's. Some of the electrical has been rewired for ground at the wall outlets, however a few have been left with only 2 prong with no ground wire.

 1.  I want to replace the wall receptacles- would a ground fault receptacle (GFCI) be the best choice?
  Re-running wires would be near impossible and I certainly don't want a ground prong where there is no actual ground connection.

2. There is no 120v outlet in the bathroom except the two prong in the wall light (Not a good old idea).  I'll be adding an GFCI outlet- what nat codes are there for this?

 House is in the county, not city. I do want it by code since safety is what I'm concerned about. I've called the elect co-op twice and they have yet to return my calls. Thought it might be quicker here.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

What is the wiring??  BX??  arkfault outlets are required in bedrooms these days.

[daddo]

Yes- BX

Forgot about arc fault. Required in bedrooms?

System is using an old (pacific?) inside breaker panel and also has an old glass round fuse (4 fuses) panel.


I know what I really need to do, just didn't want to.

I need to go all the way back to the loop and update it. It has the old hookup wire around the eave to the main box/loop.
I'll get the requirements from the co-op and a copy of their plans and see about setting a new loop, main and indoor panel---etc.
They do free inspections if you ask them.

[TDKPE]

Well, you don't have much chance of meeting all of the requirements, but for the bathroom at least, a GFCI receptacle (within 3 ft of the basin) with a sticker 'no equipment ground' will get close.  Same for any ungrounded receptacle you want to replace with a standard 5-15 receptacle, on an ungrounded circuit. 

AFCIs are required in almost every room these days, depending on which code cycle you're following.  And that'll be a problem since you only have glass fuses.

[daddo]

Well, you don't have much chance of meeting all of the requirements, but for the bathroom at least, a GFCI receptacle (within 3 ft of the basin) with a sticker 'no equipment ground' will get close.  Same for any ungrounded receptacle you want to replace with a standard 5-15 receptacle, on an ungrounded circuit. 

AFCIs are required in almost every room these days, depending on which code cycle you're following.  And that'll be a problem since you only have glass fuses.

 Basically, if I touch it, I must change it. ?

[TDKPE]

If you're doing it by the numbers, then most likely yes.  In my area, you don't have to upgrade the whole service (assuming small, out of date equipment) for small work, but if doing a major remodel, I'd have to bring the rooms I touch to current code, and that can mean a new main panel if the old one is tiny or otherwise inadequate.  And depending on the local authority, he/she may require AFCIs even in areas that aren't being worked on.  This is a gray area IMO, as the local AHJ sets the terms to a large degree.

Best to ask a 'hypothetical' question of your local AHJ before making plans, so you know what you're getting into.

Oh, and bathrooms are required to have 20A receptacle circuits, so if you're doing it by the numbers, it would almost certainly need a new circuit back to the panel.  The 1990 NEC didn't specify ampacity or even location (other than 'adjacent' to the basin), but the '96 does (20A) as well as requiring GFCI protection ('90 didn't include bathrooms).

And you'll probably have to put smoke detectors in each BR, one in the hall(s) outside said BRs, and one on each level regardless of BR location, and hardwired so they all go off together, though I don't think they'll try to make you link them if it's too disruptive.  I had to do that here when I built my office in the basement (permitted), but the building inspector (not electrical) hinted that they couldn't legally force me to link them if it was too difficult.  I did anyway, since it wasn't hard to do, and a little effort on my part made the road a little smoother when it came to some minor framing details.

[Robert Adams]

Since you are not in a city there are no inspections and technically there are state codes but they are not enforced. In tx building code enforcement is delegated to the city level. The only exception is schools and sometimes businesses. 


     So technically  you can do whatever you want. Makes living unincorporated so much nicer than a city and you aren't paying an extra $700 a year in property taxes to fund parks and gol courses cause the city doesn't think that roads and infrastructure are important.

Built a restaraunt once that was out of the city limits and it went so much faster since inspections weren't required there. Everything was done to usual standards though. Course we never got red tagged for anything when in a city anyway.

[daddo]

I guess my main objective is safety, code or no code. If some gets hurt or killed, I want to know it wasn't something I could have reasonably prevented in all good consciousness.

[daddo]

I took a closer look.


The existing inside breaker panel is "Trumbellite".  


 Four 15a 120v breakers for the entire house- one was not used, one double lugged for the fuse panel-( fuse panel only for a window a/c- not used).

 Incoming to inside panel- copper -6 gauge BX. Has 30 amp breaker supply from main- needs a 40a.

 2 outlets per bedroom= 4.
 2 outlets- kitchen counter= 2.
 1 outlet dining area= 1.
 2 outlet living=  2
 1 120v outlet for stove= 1.
 1 outlet for clothes washer= 1.
 Total- 11 outlets.  


 *Will be adding dishwasher and refrigerator outlets and 1- 30 amp dryer outlet.

 Pole to Main has 200 amp incoming service capacity. However, the Loop is supplied with 4 gauge copper BX.  I'm seeing max safe capacity at main at 80 amp total minus 15%?  Indoor 40 amp.

 House is natural gas- no elect stove or water heater.

 What a mess.

[TDKPE]

What a mess.

To paraphrase a line from Apollo 13, "What do we have in this house that's good?"

Receptacles in most rooms can be no more than 6 ft from any point along the floor/wall line (horizontal distance), including stationary glass door panels, which puts them no more than 12 ft apart.  Probably need more than two per room.  There is no limit to how many receptacles are on a circuit, though - that 'limit' comes from the required number of circuits, which is based on square footage.

Kitchen counter receptacle spacing is 2 ft max, for any counter 12" wide or more, including islands and peninsulas, and they have to be on 20A circuits, with a minimum of two such circuits, to include the other receptacles in kitchen, breakfast, dining room, pantry walls, but with nothing else on them (no lights) other than ignitor for cook top, or control and lights for a gas range or oven(s).  Refrigerator can be on one of those two (or more) circuits, or on its own 15A or 20A circuit.  Fixed in place things like disposals, dishwashers, and microwaves (in their own cubby) are usually on their own circuits, unless total current when run together is less than circuit ampacity, with largest motor at 125% of rated current.  Dishwashers and disposals are often combined on a single 20A circuit.

Bathrooms are supposed to either a) have all loads on a single 20A circuit, with no other loads (includes the receptacle), or b) just the receptacles, but that can include those in other/all bathrooms, with nothing else on that circuit.

That's just what comes to mind, and doesn't include laundry room, outdoor receptacles, and so on. 

Oh, and service is sized based on NEC Art. 220.  http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2002/10/...al-service