Home Made Veneer Help

[sawnuts]

I am building a walnut side table and I'd like to veneer (1/4" thick) the front of the drawer with some nicely figured walnut. I plan to do a book match so it will have a seam or two. If I wasn't doing that I'd make the entire drawer front from a piece of walnut. 

I plan to use poplar for the drawer with through dovetails and then add the veneer. 

I have little experience with this stuff and I am asking for advise or a good resource to help me accomplish this.

I am curious about gluing/clamping strategies and how to hold the veneer together tightly before gluing. Jointing edges square and such.

I may do a single book-match initially or attempt a "double" with 4 equal sized pieces with the junction point at the center of the drawer front.

Should I consider taping the joint? What glue is best. I don't want the pieces to creep if possible.

Thoughts?

[Splinter Puller]

I am building a walnut side table and I'd like to veneer (1/4" thick) the front of the drawer with some nicely figured walnut. I plan to do a book match so it will have a seam or two. If I wasn't doing that I'd make the entire drawer front from a piece of walnut. 

I plan to use poplar for the drawer with through dovetails and then add the veneer. 

I have little experience with this stuff and I am asking for advise or a good resource to help me accomplish this.

I am curious about gluing/clamping strategies and how to hold the veneer together tightly before gluing. Jointing edges square and such.

I may do a single book-match initially or attempt a "double" with 4 equal sized pieces with the junction point at the center of the drawer front.

Should I consider taping the joint? What glue is best. I don't want the pieces to creep if possible.

Thoughts?

With veneer that thick it's just like traditional woodworking.  Make sure your edges are straight and glue it on with clamps and cauls if needed.    Maybe try a test piece first to build your confidence and knowledge. I'm currently doing a walnut "veneer" project and I am using 1/8" thick skins which seem to be plenty thick.

[jteneyck]

I wouldn't use anything thicker than 1/8" for interior work.  There's just no good reason to do so, and reasons not to especially if you want to do a four way joint at the middle. If you really want to use 1/4" I would keep it to a simple book match and I would glue it to walnut instead of poplar.

Hide glue is the traditional glue for veneer, at least the thin stuff.  Lots of people have success with cold press veneer and good old Titebond.  Both those will creep, however, and I wouldn't use either on thick veneer with a 4 way joint.  I use Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue most of the time and epoxy the rest of the time.  Both are rigid and won't creep.  Epoxy is actually about the easiest stuff to use as it has a long working time and doesn't need or want a lot of clamping pressure for a good bond.  Squeeze out is easy to clean up with lacquer thinner and I've been told vinegar, too, but I haven't tried it.  

With 1/4" pieces you can easily edge glue the joints before gluing that to the substrate, just like you would glue up a panel.  With thinner veneer you would want to tape the joints using veneer tape to make your panel.  After taping I turn the panel over, crack open the seams and run a thin bead of TB III along them, flatten the panel back out and then wipe off any squeeze out.  When the glue dries you'll have an easy to handle sheet of veneer with no danger of the seams opening up during glue up to the substrate, or later.  

For something as small as a drawer front you can put a thick, flat caul on top of your veneer and place clamps all around the drawer front.  

John

[sawnuts]

I wouldn't use anything thicker than 1/8" for interior work.  There's just no good reason to do so, and reasons not to especially if you want to do a four way joint at the middle. If you really want to use 1/4" I would keep it to a simple book match and I would glue it to walnut instead of poplar.

Hide glue is the traditional glue for veneer, at least the thin stuff.  Lots of people have success with cold press veneer and good old Titebond.  Both those will creep, however, and I wouldn't use either on thick veneer with a 4 way joint.  I use Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue most of the time and epoxy the rest of the time.  Both are rigid and won't creep.  Epoxy is actually about the easiest stuff to use as it has a long working time and doesn't need or want a lot of clamping pressure for a good bond.  Squeeze out is easy to clean up with lacquer thinner and I've been told vinegar, too, but I haven't tried it.  

With 1/4" pieces you can easily edge glue the joints before gluing that to the substrate, just like you would glue up a panel.  With thinner veneer you would want to tape the joints using veneer tape to make your panel.  After taping I turn the panel over, crack open the seams and run a thin bead of TB III along them, flatten the panel back out and then wipe off any squeeze out.  When the glue dries you'll have an easy to handle sheet of veneer with no danger of the seams opening up during glue up to the substrate, or later.  

For something as small as a drawer front you can put a thick, flat caul on top of your veneer and place clamps all around the drawer front.  

John

John,
Thanks.

I was hoping to cover the through dovetails with veneer. I guess 1/8" would work as well. Should I worry about wear on the edges with veneer that thin? I think that some *****-beading would help that.

Why is using poplar as substrate a bad idea? To much dissimilar wood movement.

The drawer face will be around 14" W and 3 1/2" tall.

Does glue squeeze out become a problem at the joint? I would be able to plane or scrap after the veneer was installed.

Mark

[jteneyck]

It's more common to use a false front if you want to use through dovetails.  With an integral drawer front half blind dovetails are more the norm.  You could make this pretty simple if you switched to a false front, and then you could glue your 1/4" material to a walnut backer w/o concerns about the dovetails.  Doesn't look as nice when the drawer is open, but if that's not a concern it would be the easiest approach.  If you want to use an integral drawer front I would stick with 1/8" or 1/16" veneer glued to poplar or walnut, as you choose, and half blind dovetails.  

You definitely want a little glue squeeze out when you glue the veneer to the substrate; just wipe off the excess after it's clamped up.  I would make the drawer front at least 1/8" oversize all around, and then trim to final dimensions after it's veneered.  That will take care of any squeeze out that remains. I would not be concerned about wear at the edges.  How much abuse does a drawer get?  But if you want to add beading, sure, have at it.  

John

[sawnuts]

It's more common to use a false front if you want to use through dovetails.  With an integral drawer front half blind dovetails are more the norm.  You could make this pretty simple if you switched to a false front, and then you could glue your 1/4" material to a walnut backer w/o concerns about the dovetails.  Doesn't look as nice when the drawer is open, but if that's not a concern it would be the easiest approach.  If you want to use an integral drawer front I would stick with 1/8" or 1/16" veneer glued to poplar or walnut, as you choose, and half blind dovetails.  

You definitely want a little glue squeeze out when you glue the veneer to the substrate; just wipe off the excess after it's clamped up.  I would make the drawer front at least 1/8" oversize all around, and then trim to final dimensions after it's veneered.  That will take care of any squeeze out that remains. I would not be concerned about wear at the edges.  How much abuse does a drawer get?  But if you want to add beading, sure, have at it.  

John

Based on your comments, I'm rethinking the dovetails. To accomplish what I originally proposed would mean that I would almost need to assemble the drawer before applying the veneer or skin. If something went bad with the veneer, I would have problems.

I may think about the false front or maybe a locking rabbet joint. I could then apply the 1/8" to aboard then cut the joint and assemble. Less risk if something "goes south" on the gluing.

How do you handle the planing of a 1/8" piece of stock. Do you surface a board/cut the veneer/ then glue the planed side and then plane the entire rough surface when the glue dries?

Thanks again,

Mark

[Splinter Puller]

How do you handle the planing of a 1/8" piece of stock. Do you surface a board/cut the veneer/ then glue the planed side and then plane the entire rough surface when the glue dries?

I rip the wood down to 3/16 or so and then I use a small square of double sided tape to stick the strip to a 3/4" thick backer board and run that through the planer.  The tape has to be at the front of the board as you stick it into the planer.   My strips are a couple inches longer as the tape will produce a thinner spot in the veneer where it lays.  Note, I have a spiral head planer which reduces the forces hitting any one spot of the slice and limits explosions.  Works great with walnut and poplar.

[jteneyck]

Based on your comments, I'm rethinking the dovetails. To accomplish what I originally proposed would mean that I would almost need to assemble the drawer before applying the veneer or skin. If something went bad with the veneer, I would have problems.

I may think about the false front or maybe a locking rabbet joint. I could then apply the 1/8" to aboard then cut the joint and assemble. Less risk if something "goes south" on the gluing.

How do you handle the planing of a 1/8" piece of stock. Do you surface a board/cut the veneer/ then glue the planed side and then plane the entire rough surface when the glue dries?

Thanks again,

Mark

I cut my veneer on my bandsaw and then run it through the drum sander.  Trying to plane figured wood down to 1/8" usually results in an explosion of pieces, even if you double stick tape it to a carrier.  If you don't have a drum sander I suggest you cut the veneer a little thick (around 3/16") on your bandsaw or even table saw if the stock is less than 3-1/2" wide, and then glue the planed surface to your drawer stock.  When the glue is dry run the whole thing though your planer to final thickness.  

John

[Alan S]

The thickness you mention is fine to use, but you are best not thinking of it as veneer.

In my mind the distinction is that veneer is thin enough that the underlying materials expansion and contraction controls dimensions, and the glue bond is enough to take the veneer along for the ride.

Above about 1/8" you need to match the expansion of your materials better, which is the reason for the suggestion above that you use more similar materials.

[sawnuts]

I could glue to the veneer down and then plane it flush.

I would be concerned about some chipping due to the reversing grain due to the book match.

I do not have access to a panel sander. I do have hand planes though and scrapers.

It is a small area and I could plane/scrap and sand it smooth. 

I think I'll go with some sort of a rabbet joint on the front. That way I can veneer the front and then cut the joint. If something goes bad at some point I'm not out much.

Is it OK to leave the glued side slightly rough? This may help with glue creep possibly. I recall that " in the day" panels were flattened with a toothing plane then glued

Am I wrong?

Mark