opening a can of worms

[tablesawtom]

Just because you have been told something long enough doesn't make it true. The world is not flat so you can't fall off the end of the known world.

1. Because of the design of the frog on a Bailey designed plane, the frog moves forward and backwards on corresponding seats.

[attachment=53084] 

[attachment=53085]

The beauty of the design is,  hypothetically speaking,  the the two machines seats on the plane body correspond to the two machined surfaces or the frog and the distance is the same at any given point, so that no matter where the frog is positioned when moving forward or backward, the distance between the two mating surfaces remain the same. I say hypothetically because there is always tolerances in machining so it may or not be a prefect
rectangle.

2. Carbide inserted cutters or a jointer or planner are considered by most to be a must have option on that type of a machine. How ever it has come to attention a lot of people that tightening the inserts as tight as one can get them is resulting in a lot of broken inserts. The wedging effect of the flat head screws is expanding the inserts and cause the insert to brake. And by torqueing the insert to a specific foot pounds, the insert breakage can be eliminated. Okay so what are you saying? I am saying that just because it is possible to over tighten something doesn't mean it is necessary to do so.

It is said that a frog needs to be fastened to the body when flattening so that the screws don't distort the body of the plane. The thinnest part where the the screw goes through the frog and the thickest part is of the plane body is where the taped hole is. To put it bluntly, if you think you can distort a plane body by torqueing a screw with a screw driver then maybe you should rethink your position. Just because you have been told something like the world is flat doesn't make it true.

3, On a hand plane the cutting force wants to push the blade back. Science says for every action there is a reaction. The hand pushes the plane blade into the wood being cut. But the resistance of the wood not wanting to be cut pushes the blade back. Also the wood being cut rises in the cut therefore pushing the blade back down against the frog. So the cutting force or splitting force of the wood being cut or split is down against the blade and back toward the frog.

4. On a table saw it is always a good idea to use a push block, or push stick, when ripping a piece of wood. Most push sticks have a little something that hooks over the end of the board so that when a board can no longer be pushed by the hand it can still be fed passed the blade. It takes a little downward pressure to keep the board flat on the table, but not as much as the pressure required to complete the cut on the board.

5. The frog adjusting screw is able to move the frog forward or backwards because of the little piece screwed on the back of the frog which, by the way, takes all of the cutting force ( resistance to being cut) away and the amount of pressure that the screws need to hold the frog down is minimal. All that the screws that hold the frog down in place is minimal.

6. So what are you saying? I am saying is tat all you need to do is to tighten down the frog retaining screw tight enough so that the frog can't be lifted up , but can still be moved forward or backward with the frog adjusting. I move my frog once in a blue mood so I am not going the wear out the adjusting screw or the threaded hole .Just tight ant over tight on the screws.

FOR the RECORD, The cutter can be advanced forward or backwards on a Bailey plane without removing the lever cap or blade and chip beaker or making any adjustments because it moves on a parallel design. With the Bedrock flat top design the cutter can be moved forward or backwards but still the cutter has to be readjusted. 

I conclusion every body know that the Lever Cap  and blade assemble needs to be remover to get excess the the frog screws on a Baily plane and that the Bedrock is far superior because every one has been told often enough by people that it is so. The Bedrock design which says the design is better is only better because marketing says so. 

I have proved over and over to myself that the Baily design works and I hope you try out what I have written. And just because it can be tightened enough so no one including yourself can loosen it is not always the thing to do. Sometimes just tight enough to do the job is good enough.

Tom

[C. in Indy]

Good Observations, Sir

I also find the Bailey pattern frogs work really nice if I set them to make a continuous "ramp" from the frog through the plane base.   That is, I position my frog a bit backward from a really tight mouth setting.   I let the chipbreaker do its magic for controlling tearout, with a fairly open mouth.

[stav]

I take it that you recently purchased a Bailey that had screws so tight you couldn't unscrew them.


All good observations.

Do you have anything on needing the plane to be under tension when flattening the sole? That really never made sense.to me. The blade attaches to the frog mostly. How could that twist the cast iron of the plane body?

[tablesawtom]

I take it that you recently purchased a Bailey that had screws so tight you couldn't unscrew them.


All good observations.

Do you have anything on needing the plane to be under tension when flattening the sole? That really never made sense.to me. The blade attaches to the frog mostly. How could that twist the cast iron of the plane body?

All good observations. No I haven't purchased on that is to tight resonantly but I have in the past. Cast iron doesn't flex, usually it just brakes. The threaded  holes are in the thickest part of the plane body and the weakest part is the frog where the screw goes through. Truthfully one can not put enough torque to do any body flexing with a screw driver, but if you are on you tube and want to sound knowable you can always regurgitate that wives tail. It has been stated often enough, so one with no mechanical skills or background will believe it. Just because one wants to believe they know something others don't, doesn't make it true.

Take the flat top Bedrock design for example. Yes, you can loosen the frog without taking the blade off but the when tightening it down the screw point goes into a corresponding hole in the hold down. So now you have a 90 degree transfer of torque and it is not direct force clamping it down. The bearing down spot is on the bottom of the circumference of the screw only.

The beauty of the bedrock design is that the frog can not twist from side to side making it much easier to adjust the cutting edge side to side. But if you move the frog you will have to readjust the depth of cut on the blade. However the blade will not have to be adjusted size to side.  But if one tightens down the frog on a Bailey tight, then marketing says the new planes are better and the Baileys are not something you need. Rob Cosmen is good at selling the Wood River planes.

The older Bailey planes are better than the newer ones however. On the older ones the the frogs were machined to closer tolerances  at the front of the frog limiting the possibility of toe movement side to side.

My disclaimer is personally I have a collection of Keen Kutter K series planes. That series of plane is just a Bedrock round side with casting numbers changed. My two #4s have the mouth set for for very fine shavings. One has a slightly rounded blade for smoothing flat surfaces and the other straight. And so it is with all of my other planes except the mouth opening is more open. Once set I don't change it. 

So my writing about the Baily design has less effect on me than it has on others. But I just thought I would pass alone the information so one can make a knowable decision when buying.  If you want to spend your money on a newer high dollar plane, then by all means buy it. Just don't let marketing fool  you into thinking something is true when it is just marketing.

To me there is a no better feeling than knowing that when I pick up my plane I will get a nice shaving from it and that I have somewhat mastered some part of the woodworking skills I need.

I wish you success with your venture.

Tom

[tablesawtom]

I take it that you recently purchased a Bailey that had screws so tight you couldn't unscrew them.


All good observations.

Do you have anything on needing the plane to be under tension when flattening the sole? That really never made sense.to me. The blade attaches to the frog mostly. How could that twist the cast iron of the plane body?

I cut my first and only gear in high school in my school(1961- 1962) year. I  worked 5 hours a day  ( 6 days a week) at Berry  tool and Die, in the schools Trades in Industries program and had 4 months of my Tool and Die apprenticeship served before I was 18 in 1963. Except for 4 years in the Navy I have spent my entire life working in machine shops as a Tool and Die Maker. I did take 10 years off to teach Tool and Die Making at Hawkeye Institute of Technology, later to becoming Hawkeye Community Collège. And I am still working 15 hours a week in the tool room area of Machine Tool Engineering. I forgot to add that my last 6 years were spent in a mold shop. I was put on their apprentice program although I was a lead mold maker after 3 months.   

Why did I list my qualifications? With my 65 plus years of experience I can honestly say one can not flatten a plane by hand. I did try it once, I did try lapping with grinding compound on a lapping plate for about 30 minutes and gave up. It is easy to shine up cast iron with wet dry paper. But if you think that just sanding a scratch out is time consuming  in wood, well removing iron take at least 50 times longer. That is when I switched to a surface grinder. I takes me about 1 hour to just grind the bottom of a #4 . And the machine is designed to do one thing, remove metal. If it takes an hour on a machine what makes you think you can do it by hand in a short time?

It takes time to even shine up a plane and it makes it look nice. If sanded correctly it will even help reduce friction. But it won't be flat.

I have a few questions. 
  1. Why does every old plane that that was ever made need to be flattened by someone that thinks they know what they are doing because the saw someone else who didn't know what they were doing do it?
  2. Why couldn't  every plane Manufacture get there planes flat in the first place?
  3. Does a plane need to be flat? People have been using planes for 1000s of years and I doubt all of them were flat.
  4. Most people until about the end of WW2 used hand planes to work wood. I doubt they ever worried about them being flat.
  5. Does a plane need to be flat or flattened to work? NO
  6. Does it need to be sharp? Yes and a person would be much better off spending their money on sharpening supplies than flattening supplies.

So to answer Stav's question. It makes no difference if the frog is on or off. One can not distort a plane with a screw driver. and all one is going is wasting their time trying to flatten. One is not wasting their time shining up a plane so they feel better about their plane, which can cause them to use it more?  A clean car drives better.

It is hard to except the truth when one wants to believe a lie. 

Tom

[AHill]

Good advice. I've always adjusted my frog so that I can adjust my cutting depth without having to remove the chip breaker/blade. I've seen experts even adjust the depth on a jointer during the cut. It makes the plane a whole lot more versatile.

[bandit571]

One other "tip":   When adjusting for depth of cut,  when done , make sure you have the tab up into the slot on the chipbreaker set so that the iron will NOT slide back when it is pushed into the wood...so, make sure you "spin" the "slack" out. 

Lets say, you have been retracting the iron to reduce the depth....and we all "know" about the sloppy tab to hole fits....make sure the last direction you spin the wheel is to almost push the iron forward....

[CStan]

I think somebody mentioned frog position.

I regularly move the frog forward in order to close the mouth - moved past the point it would form a continuous ramp with the sole. I've never experienced anything close to chatter because of it. I've relegated this whole thing to Old Wives' Tales and viral overthinking because that's exactly what it is. Anybody reluctant to move the frog in order to produce a more closed mouth -- you have virtually nothing to worry about.

[tablesawtom]

I think somebody mentioned frog position.

I regularly move the frog forward in order to close the mouth - moved past the point it would form a continuous ramp with the sole.  I've never experienced anything close to chatter because of it.  I've relegated this whole thing to Old Wives' Tales and viral overthinking because that's exactly what it is.  Anybody reluctant to move the frog in order to produce a more closed mouth -- you have virtually nothing to worry about.

That is what my original post is about. If the frog on the Baily planes is just tightened down enough to keep the frog from lifting, it can be moved forward or backwards without touching the blade setting. Removing the lever cap, blade and chip beaker to access the screws so the frog can be moved is just a wives tale. Rob Cosman is good at ay keeping the tail alive. He makes money from Woodcraft for plane sales. Most get the frog setting where they like and it is never changed, but it is easier to fine tune your plane using my method. You have nothing to loose, because you can always tighten it as tight as possible as you can at anytime. Like I said I have a plane collection and it has taken several years to get where I am. I plan on having a flat bottom and a corrugated bottom in each size. It is not yet complete. But each has its own mouth setting so I don't have to change the frog settings. The most used sizes I have are the $5 and #6. So actually I only need two of these sizes. But there is a difference between need and want. 

If you try what I have written about, write and let us all know what you found out.

Tom

[bandit571]

Almost like that old wives tale about one MUST replace EVERY Stanley plane iron with a new, thicker iron...yep..that one...