Opinions--Fire Protection for Important Papars

[GHR]

daveferg said:

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After seeing the devastation of some of these houses lost to the wild fires out here-----starting to second guess the steps I've taken.

We have a Sentury Safe----floor mounted in our garage (the lowest part of the house, on a slab). As any fire will burn up and there's no combustibles under the safe, I figured this was about the best location.

But having seen some of these houses which obviously had high heat----beginning to wonder.

Any thoughts? We're trying to keep the number of locations where we need to gather items to take in case of an evacuation.

Now, the safe is still the best solution if there were ever a fire when we were gone, but open to suggestions.

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If you are looking at the fires out west, they burn until the fuel is gone. That is a long time with high heat.

Residential fires don't burn as long. Fire people show up and poor a lot of water onto the ground. Not so long at high heat.

The best place would in a swimming pool full of water. Set the safe over the water. When the fire burns the supports, the safe falls into the water.

If your water table is high, I would think a safe in the ground would be sufficient. Might put a fire sprinkler near the safe to dump a lot of water on the safe.




But I keep my important papers in a safe deposit box in a bank with fire suppression system.

[daveferg]

You all have helped by pointing out my suspicions as to holding up in a fire-----and yes, these homes lost in brush fires are clearly burning hotter than a normal house fire.

Slapping my head on not considering the obvious----a safe deposit box----we'll just make copies of the docs and take them to the bank. We have a back-up drive that copies both our computers daily, so that's a quick grab as we go out the door. Thanks for the input.

[Bob10]

keep originals in the bank and copies in a fire proof at home. If you want in use an angle grinder or

[PhilJoines]

Consumer Reports did a test several decades ago. The best rating was for a Redwood box 3" thick. The wood had to burn away, the steel just had the heat transfer thru the materiel.

[JohnnyEgo]

Your best bet is off-site storage, be that physical or cloud-based. A video or two of the house and a spreadsheet with the details of some of your more special or high-value items can make it a lot easier to document and prove your loss.

If the ambient temperature within your safe or box reaches the ignition point of a particular item in that box, it doesn't matter whether it had direct contact with a flame or not; it's going to burn. Many things will melt or distort at much lower points. So the key to this is to keep the heat down in the box.

Metal radiates heat. A 10 gauge metal box may be able to soak up a fair amount of heat dependent on it's size and internal volume, but it is going to pass that heat into the interior sooner or later. Safe makers use materials like ceramic wool or concrete to absorb that radiant heat and keep the temperature down in the box.

Cheaper residential security containers (RSC, aka gun safes) and some fireproof security boxes use gypsum (drywall) as an insulating mechanism. The drywall contains a crap-load of water, which in turn absorbs a bunch of heat energy as it converts to steam. This tends to keep the interior of the RSCs to below the ignition point of paper for as long as the drywall has sufficient water to convert. Once it runs out, you have a steamy, slightly pressurized oven that can continue to rise in temperature. This also assumes that at no point during or prior did the steam find a way to escape, such as through a bad seal or poor construction.

Assuming your box survives the high heat of a full burn house fire without compromise, and it is cooled off quickly enough to prevent the interior temperature from rising to the ignition point, the next thing it has to survive is the deluge of water used to put the fire out. It's often quite a while before you can get to the contents, and by then, the box has set in a wet and ashy slurry, possibly buried under the rubble. So it might have to survive prolonged exposure to intense heat, a very rapid cooling off, a bunch of debris falling on it, and sitting in a pool of water for a prolonged period of time without compromise. That is a lot to ask of anything.

It's good that you have positioned your box/safe/RSC in a way to minimize it's exposure to other combustible materials. The quality and insulating choices of the container you have choosen, along with the type of fire exposure you anticipate, will be the predominant factors in what may or may not survive. I'd suggest putting documents in archival envelopes and then in freezer bags to minimize the risk of water exposure, assuming they survive the ambient heat.

If you ever want to understand just how much is marketing hype versus reality, take a look at the construction, standards, and testing of a TL rated safe versus a 'gunsafe' or 'fire safe'. When insurers evaluate commercial fire and theft risk, real money is involved, and you end up with something very different and much heavier then a 'safe' from Home Depot or a sporting goods store.

In a serious whole-house fire, the lockset is likely to melt. Even the nice metal S&G series. Even if the lockset doesn't melt, there is a fair probability your glass-plate relock mechanism will fail under prolonged exposure to heat. Professional locksmiths will usually just cut or drill it at that point, and if it is a quality safe, that may take a while.

My floor cannot support the weight of the safe I lust after, which is a Graffunder E Series. Can't even support the weight of a really good RSC, like the Amesec BF series. So for guns, I make due with the best RSC I could get down my steps. But it is primarily for peace of mind against the impulsive and smash&grab types until the cops can arrive, and not for dedicated and informed attempts to gain access over time, nor do I trust it a lick for fire protection. Jeremy's TL6x30 will run rings around anything most folks buy off the shelf, and it is minimum rated at 2 hours @ 1850° with an internal temperature below 350°. If you ever see a TL Rated safe next to a UL rated RSC like a gun safe, you will understand just how much of the RSC world is marketing.

So again, off-site / cloud storage of document copies and video is probably your best real hedge against fire damage.

[JosephP]

Would it be at all helpful to build a "cabinet" around the safe with steel studs and double layer 5/8" dry wall on either side??? I know it is not going to be sealed...but seems like it would really slow down the heat getting to the safe.

[daddo]

In a fire rated safe, wedge the papers between a stack of newspapers on the bottom.

[daveferg]

Johnny---thanks for the great explanation. While I agree and will be working towards off-site storage, I'm a little nervous about having some docs---like a list of my savings bonds, for example, on something that could someday be hacked.

I already have a wood cabinet around the safe, with such a size that adding a layer or two of dry wall wouldn't be a problem.

Again---thanks all for the great ideas.

[Steve Friedman]

As an Estates attorney, I am constantly surprised to see what people keep in their safe deposit boxes. A few people do keep cash, jewelry, collectibles, and other valuables in safe deposit boxes. If you do, make sure that you have those items covered under your own insurance policy because the bank is not responsible if the items are stolen or destroyed. The only things that need that level of protection are those that are not replaceable or have sentimental value. But that's rarely what people keep in their boxes. People tend to keep that kind of stuff near them.

Most safe deposit boxes are virtually empty, containing a bunch of random obsolete receipts and documents, along with a few originals of recorded documents (like deeds, divorce judgments, birth, death, and marriage certificates), US Savings Bonds, stock certificates, and life insurance policies. Scanned copies of those are plenty. You can easily get certified copies of recorded documents. Savings bonds and stock certificates are really just receipts - the ownership is based on the government or corporate records. All easily replaced. Easy to get a new copy of a lost or destroyed insurance policies as well.

For those with safe deposit boxes, a word of advice. Please let your kids (or whoever) know that you have a box, where it's located, and where you keep the key. Renting a safe deposit box is pretty cheap, but drilling one after someone dies is not.

The problem I have with safe deposit boxes these days are the limited hours of access. Maybe not an issue for retirees, but the rest of us can't get there during those hours.

Just my $0.02.

Steve

[daveferg]

Steve--mostly good advice, but totally disagree on how easy it is to replace certified docs. I once lost most everything in a storage fire. Getting certified copies of such things as birth certificates, college transcripts/diplomas, etc. is a long PITA process.

Other valuable items are pictures---but thankfully in this digital age, it's not too hard to have off-site storage either in a Cloud or thumb drive.