Advice on guest full bath remodel

[sleepy hollow]

I realize that, but I have to re-learn how to set up photos for display, and simply have not had time to do that.  Between iCloud and their photo apps, Apple appears to want to make it as hard as possible to use your photos.  And I have been in the technology business for 35 years.  

You point is well taken, though.

[Snipe Hunter]

Sleepy Hollow. Just set up a Photobucket account. It's easy.

[sleepy hollow]

So, I just learned I can post directly.  Here is a view of the new plan.

   

[Mr_Mike]

Good, you can SketchUp! If you can flesh that out with adjoining rooms, Joist direction, sewer pipes, hvac and other structural items, it helps.

Since you said you couldn't locate plumbing in the outside wall, I'm guessing the left wall and bottom wall are exterior walls. Is that the short tub? If it were me, I'd be inclined to delete the linen closet, go with a 5 1/2 foot tub and the balance shower. Stub wall between shower and tub just because you need something for the tub to rest on.

You need to research standard shower door sizes so you don't need custom glass. Look at Vigo brand. You may have to go custom on the glass wall between shower and tub.

It might be simpler to go Neo-angle for the shower and avoid any connection to the tub. That will definitely require linen closet deletion.

[rwe2156]

IMO The wall between shower/tub needs be supported either go to the ceiling or connected to a soffit wall across the shower or tub.

I know its "LOML", "SWMBO" and all that, but this is a guest bathroom so why a separate shower/tub?  Don't get the necessity for that.

It certainly complicates things and adds a lot to cost. Time for a sit down with "Who's the Boss" :-)

You might consider the following:

1. Eliminate shower stall
2. Move tub to shower area (full sized tub)
3. Create a privacy room for toilet by building a wall extending from end of vanity across
4. Install a door and put a small linen closet or sink. If there is room a small linen closet may fit between toilet wall and end of tub.

I've found having a privacy room around a toilet in a guest bath is really a big plus.

You're smart for leaving plumbing in place.

[sleepy hollow]

Thanks for all the advice.  Though I'll leave the marital advice alone.   The LOML thing is a polite nod to the lady of the house and her wishes when conversing with strangers.  It would be a shame to read more into the protocol than is there.  

I like the idea of a tub and shower.  It makes sense when we consider possible grandchildren and other factors. 

This is a guest bathroom and will likely not get lots of use while we are here.  The drawing shows the 4.5' tub which is where we are leaning.  That allows for a 42x36 shower which will work I think.  There is already a 5' tub in the full bath in the finished basement.  

Appreciate the advice on researching standard sized glass enclosures. 

The linen closet suggestions are certainly sound, but we have decided against that.  I do not want to lose that space, demo more finished space, nor further delay my slow-enough-as-it-is progress.  

We have a very large master suite with very large master bath to get to after this. We could fit three tubs and three showers in that one, and we'll go crazy a bit there to take advantage of the large space.  For this one we want to improve, but have settled on sticking within the limits of the space.

I have not shown the planned knee wall between the tub and shower well, but it is there.  [Still getting used to sketchup.  It is very temperamental and the interface not always intuitive, like most Google products.]  Plan to install some shelves between the vanity and toilet to create privacy. There was a floor to ceiling partition there which I removed.  Just too many sub-rooms in such a small space.  Was thinking about shelves facing side of toilet below the vanity and shelves or other shallow cabinet facing vanity/entrance door above.  I have some rough milled cherry from my property that I could use to build something custom, maybe.  Or there is always Ikea, 
 .

Finally, there is a window on the wall just above the toilet, which makes that an exterior wall, the only one.  The wall behind the tub and shower is my walk in closet.  That would be another opportunity to make the bathroom larger, but, again, not worth it IMHO.  

Right now I am removing and replacing the ¾" sub flooring and stiffening the 24"OC engineered I-Joists so I can feel better about tiling the floor without failure, assuming the DITRA XL will do what they say.  

Some other q's if anyone has any thoughts, please:

1A)  I was going to do a mortar shower pan.  Looks pretty straightforward.  But there seems to be a lot of "new" thought going into that.  Basically seems like the choice now is to simply put down the bed with no membrane, and seal/waterproof all surfaces before tiling.  Makes sense to me.  Keep the water out in the first place.  Anyone think that is not a good idea?

1B)  As an alternative, I am also looking at preformed pans/curb.  KBRS has a field adjustable pan that would work.  Looks like about $500 to get all the stuff.  Any thoughts on these?  I realize it would be cheaper to do my own pan, but this would save time for sure, and the money is not that much of an issue when doing it myself.  Saving tons over a contractor as it is.  I'm no expert, but I really have been less than impressed with moderately priced contractors.  I can see their mistakes and corner cuts.  When I do it myself, I only have me to complain to, and all my mistakes are nostalgic reminders of what it takes to acquire real skills.  
   

2)  I am looking at using Dens shield waterproof drywall, which I have not used, instead of the cementitious backerboards, which I have used.  This is, in part, to handle the transition from tile to non-tile.  Not going to tile all the way up to the ceiling or tile the ceiling in the shower, and the tub will only have tiling up to the level of the knee wall.  Dens shield is apparently paintable so we can simply stop tiling where we want and paint the rest.  Anyone have any thoughts on this strategy?  I am not crazy about using drywall or even green board above cement board as the green board is not rated for wet areas, just damp.  I am convinced it will fail if any water gets in there, and the dens shield looks pretty easy to cut and install, another advantage.  But Hardibacker is only a bit more trouble, and it is readily waterproofed, so, I can go either way.  But I have never seen a good discussion of the transition strategies for tile to drywall.    Hand waving is mainly what I read/see.  Maybe it's just not such a big deal and I am overthinking this.  

Thanks again for your time and all the advice.  Will post some photos soon, so you can tell me what I am doing wrong.  I mean that sincerely.  Lots of great experience out there and I really value all critiques.  

Sleepy H

[Mr_Mike]

I'm a big fan of Kerdi for the shower walls and pan.  You can then just use drywall.  That is how I did  the shower shown below.  Somewhat more expensive, but foolproof.  You need the Kerdi drain though.  Also, having the moisture barrier near the surface helps the shower dry cutting down on mold/mildew.  Of course, a pre-built pan has no moisture issues.  

A mortar pan with kerdi is simple.

What is the span and depth of the i-joists?  I do not think doubling the joists is necessary.  I have 16" I-joists on a 24 foot span and no issues with tile cracking.  

If you can move the toilet towards the sink, you could put the tub on the back wall.  Compress the width of the vanity to accommodate.  Then, you can put extra shelving or a small makeup table between the shower and tub.  I would rather sacrifice vanity space than tub length.  I'd go to a single basin to get more surface area on the vanity top.  

[sleepy hollow]

Very nice job.  Looks really great.  

I am also a big fan of schluter stuff.  Will price out the kerdi solution to see what the diff is.  


I cannot move the toilet without extensive mods due to the plumbing below.  Don't want to mess with it.  Long story that involves how we eliminated the soffit in the kitchen below when we remodeled the kitchen.  The only purpose of the soffit was to hide the poorly planned plumbing for that toilet.  It goes on from there...

As for the joists, they are 24"OC.  Structurally sound, but a challenge for tiling due to movement/deflection.  

16" is much preferred, but that is not what we have.  The stiffening I am doing is to strengthen the webbing (vertical part), and then sister some 2x6s and bridge between joists.  Will post photos in a day or so when I can get to it.  I don't need to bear a heavier load, just distribute it better across the joists to reduce movement from people walking.  I am 6'3" and about 215, so I am the test case.  

A few q's that occur to me from your photo:

How are you managing the water flow to 2 separate heads?  Are they coming through that single valve?  Are you getting max flow rates through each head, like 2.5 gpm each?  

Is the glass enclosure custom or is it a standard you found somewhere and installed yourself.  Looks really professionally build.  


Thanks.

[Mr_Mike]

Comments in blue below...

Very nice job.  Looks really great.  

I am also a big fan of schluter stuff.  Will price out the kerdi solution to see what the diff is.  

I think it was like $400 or $500 for the kerdi. It would be cheaper now since there are competing products in the marketplace now. The Kerdi cost more than the tile I used. Tile is 18"
honed travertine from Home Depot at like $1 per sq ft. Natural stone is nice to work with. Instead of needing cap tiles, just round the edges with a wet diamond blade and polish with silicon carbide wet/dry automotive paper. You will notice no picture frames around the niches. Can't do that with glazed ceramic. Also note the foot hold. The wife wanted it for shaving legs, but I probably use it more just in basic showering. The niches and foot hold also help decide to use Kerdi regardless of cost. Way less stress over leaks. BTW: My first shower. I did the hall bath with a tub surround first, though.


I cannot move the toilet without extensive mods due to the plumbing below.  Don't want to mess with it.  Long story that involves how we eliminated the soffit in the kitchen below when we remodeled the kitchen.  The only purpose of the soffit was to hide the poorly planned plumbing for that toilet.  It goes on from there...

If the move could be 100% hidden by removing the kitchen cabinets, doing the wet work, and rehanging the cabinets, I'd not hesitate. If you are pulling up the deck from above, I'd also do the move. You just get so much utility by moving the toilet presuming you are staying in the same joist bay. I moved my hall bath toilet flange by working through the existing hole and a hole on the floor below from a can light. You just have to want to.
I would not move it if I had to cut through a I-joist without having the specific engineering instructions for that exact joist system.

As for the joists, they are 24"OC.  Structurally sound, but a challenge for tiling due to movement/deflection.  

I was asking about span (length) not pitch. Mine are 24" OC as well. However, the deck is 1 1/8" ply. It appears you do not have nearly the support joist-to-joist which renders the span issue moot.

16" is much preferred, but that is not what we have.  The stiffening I am doing is to strengthen the webbing (vertical part), and then sister some 2x6s and bridge between joists.  Will post photos in a day or so when I can get to it.  I don't need to bear a heavier load, just distribute it better across the joists to reduce movement from people walking.  I am 6'3" and about 215, so I am the test case.  

A few q's that occur to me from your photo:

How are you managing the water flow to 2 separate heads?  Are they coming through that single valve?  Are you getting max flow rates through each head, like 2.5 gpm each?  

Standard Delta parts. After the valve, you use either a two-way or three-way diverter. See the extra valve above the hot/cold lever. With a three-way, one typically adds body jets as well as the hand wand. The next shower I do, will have body jets. The wife wouldn't let me spend the couple of hundred on such a trivial feature.
No clue on "maximum flow". With the low flow heads, I don't think it matters. A nice hot shower under double shower heads after a long day doing yard work is really nice.

Is the glass enclosure custom or is it a standard you found somewhere and installed yourself.  Looks really professionally build.  

The enclosure is from Vigo. 48" neo-angle. I built the shower around the enclosure specs since custom tempered glass would cost more than the entire shower. I set the perimeter of the base to put the glass at mid-span and its off just a bit, but you have 4" to work with, so no big deal.


Thanks.

[sleepy hollow]

Thanks for your responses.  Most helpful.  Just priced out the schluter shower system and it looks very competitive with the KBMS version.  $500 at the schluter site.  Also clearly superior.  Hard to believe it can be installed over drywall.  

Sorry for the misunderstanding on the joist specs.  The length is 16 feet I believe from edge to center beam of the house.  When I did my kitchen floor, I added plywood to the existing ¾" subfloor and used regular DITRA.  

But the transitions are not the best as the kitchen floor is above the surrounding hardwood.  

The new DITRA XL is warranted to handle 24" OC joists like mine with only one layer of ¾" ply using porcelain tile, no stone.  I am stiffening the joists as a precaution.  Hopefully it will work out and I am not just wasting time.  

I am pretty convinced the config shown in the diagram is what I will do.  Moving the toilet would allow the shower to be moved back, but really eats into the rest of the space.  I honestly think the compromise will work, though my wife is planning to talk to our neighbor who is a very high end real estate agent about the desirability of the bath/shower thing.  We'll see what she says and probably do it this way anyway.  Stubborn old clucks that we are.  

I am really glad you pointed me to the Schluter shower kit.  I assumed it was way to much.  Now I am eager to read all the details.  

Thanks again.