Dovetail angle

[bandit571]

<p>

</p><p>
</p><p><br></p><p>Bandit,</p><p><br></p><p>All due respect, this makes no sense to me. Unless the front is loose, what would cause the pins to fall apart? Everything moves as one piece. I don't get it.</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>

</p><p><br></p><p>Makes one wonder WHY there is a hole where a skinny pin USED to be, doesn't it......yet have seen it on more than a few Antiques.....<br></p>

[Greg Jones]

Re: Everything moves as one piece. I don't get it.

I expect it’s just an attempt to discredit the excellent looking dovetails that have already been posted in this thread. Skinny pins are a more contemporary ‘thing’, so I doubt there are many, if any, examples of them used in antiques, regardless of condition. Pictures to contradict what I’ve said would be helpful, as I’m certain they exist if that’s the case.

[bandit571]

<p>So...HOW do YOU set the angle gauge for dovetails.....or, do you? &nbsp;&nbsp; Just trust the person that made that fancy gauge you went out and bought to have the angles right...?</p><p><br></p><p>I suppose you'll come on with the usual.."Well, I use my (insert Brand name here) and LOVE it....don't use it often, but it is nice to have IF I do need it"&nbsp; Have to get that sales pitch in, right....</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>Old school? &nbsp;&nbsp; use the same things framers used, to figure the pitch of a roof.....just on a small scale, is all. &nbsp; The bevel gauge I was just using, has "Sargents Patent"&nbsp; on the blade....that later became the Stanley #18....and was set by a Nicholls&nbsp; no. 414R framer's square. &nbsp; If you want to compare Brand names, that is...</p><p><br></p><p>BTW:&nbsp; back in the late 1980s to early 1990s...I used to repair such damaged drawers for a local Antique store.....she would send them over to me, I'd fix up any broken stuff,&nbsp; renew the finish, and send it back to be sold....was a nice little "side gig"....<br></p>

[Derek Cohen]

“London” (skinny) dovetails have been around for a very long time. They are not a contemporary invention, and always been a mark of higher end work.

In more recent years, dovetails have become a feature of quality drawers, and a focus has moved to slimmer, as opposed to utilitarian “kitchen” work - a derogatory remark for some, I recognize, but it irks me that those who simply cannot work to this level constantly find a reason to knock with snide comments. Just accept that for some, the style of dovetails are not important in their work design. For myself, dovetail design is as much a part of the whole, and I strive to attend equally to all parts.

In the 20+ years I have been making dovetails this way, I have not had a failure. There are many reasons for failing dovetails, and I do not view well made slim dovetails any less strong in drawers. Personally, I would only consider them for drawers, and only if complimentary with the design in question, and not for cases.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[wmickley]

<p>

“London” (skinny) dovetails have been around for a very long time. They are not a contemporary invention, and always been a mark of higher end work.

In more recent years, dovetails have become a feature of quality drawers, and a focus has moved to slimmer, as opposed to utilitarian “kitchen” work - a derogatory remark for some, I recognize, but it irks me that those who simply cannot work to this level constantly find a reason to knock with snide comments. Just accept that for some, the style of dovetails are not important in their work design. For myself, dovetail design is as much a part of the whole, and I strive to attend equally to all parts.

In the 20+ years I have been making dovetails this way, I have not had a failure. There are many reasons for failing dovetails, and I do not view well made slim dovetails any less strong in drawers. Personally, I would only consider them for drawers, and only if complimentary with the design in question, and not for cases.

Regards from Perth

Derek

</p><p><br></p><p>You don't view Twiggy dovetails as any less strong? Not much physics there. And not much experience with restoration. Once you have repaired a few of these you view them as cheap.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p>Any competent woodworker can make dovetails as skinny as he wants. And it is a pretty sad piece of furniture that relies on skinny dovetails to show that the maker is anything above incompetent.&nbsp;</p>

[Derek Cohen]

<p>Oh Warren. I can count on you to twist&nbsp;my words. No designer of worth, in my opinion, relies on skinny dovetails to create the impression of high quality. Dovetails are one part of the whole.&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p>
Plus, I am not sure what you are referring to as "skinny". My interpretation of "London" dovetails is a sharp apex. The ratio can be anything from 5:1 through to 8:1, however I avoid the latter as these leave the sides too parallel. I prefer 6/7:1 for drawer sides, as I wrote earlier. This creates sufficient strength, along with a elegance (in my view).</p><p><br></p><p>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p>Regards from Perth&nbsp;</p><p><br></p><p>Derek</p>

[bandit571]

<p>maybe a more "balanced" look, instead of them stupidly wide tails, would look a bit better to some people.&nbsp; But, the OP's question was about what angle to use. &nbsp; And maybe HOW to set the angle up. &nbsp; Not everyone can afford a store bought dovetail guide. &nbsp; And maybe they would like to make a guide themselves. &nbsp; <br></p><p><br></p><p>Skinny pins..fat pins..too many pins, too few pins....all depends upon the eye of the builder. &nbsp;&nbsp; Go back about 100-140 years....when every dovetail was machine made...and, most of the "Masters"&nbsp; hid any and all dovetails....with moldings. &nbsp; Was considered bad form to have them where the client could see them...and, even IF you did pull a drawer out....they had covered the dovetails with *****-beading.&nbsp; <br></p><p><br></p><p>Arguing about whose dovetail style is The Best is about like arguing about whose Sensei is the One True Path...( cue the Hong Kong Laff track)</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>Set an angle that looks good to you,&nbsp; others aren't the ones building YOUR project..YOU ( the OP) is the one that counts.&nbsp; get some pine scraps, play around with the angles, and the spacing....until it looks right to you. &nbsp;&nbsp; Depending on the depth of a drawer....things can change a bit. &nbsp; <br></p>

[Handplanesandmore]

<p>Skinny dovetails were found to be strong in a software simulation done by Steve Schafer, an engineer while dovetail angles were examined in a joinery test (1958) and were found to have minimal bearings on the joinery strength.</p><p><br></p><p>For all intents and purposes, dovetails cut and glued (using modern glue) are not going to fail in normal use whether&nbsp;the dovetail angle looks average or elegant. Any angle between 6&nbsp;and 14 degrees cut by hand is just fine.</p><p><br></p><p>Simon</p>

[Derek Cohen]

<p>

</p><p>Skinny dovetails were found to be strong in a software simulation done by Steve Schafer, an engineer while dovetail angles were examined in a joinery test (1958) and were found to have minimal bearings on the joinery strength.</p><p><br></p><p>For all intents and purposes, dovetails cut and glued (using modern glue) are not going to fail in normal use whether&nbsp;the dovetail angle looks average or elegant. Any angle between 6&nbsp;and 14 degrees cut by hand is just fine.</p><p><br></p><p>Simon</p><p>

</p><p><br></p><p>Thank you Simon!</p><p><br></p><p><blockquote><meta charset="utf-8"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;">maybe a more "balanced" look, instead of them stupidly wide tails, would look a bit better to some people.&nbsp; But, the OP's question was about what angle to use. &nbsp; And maybe HOW to set the angle up. &nbsp; Not everyone can afford a store bought dovetail guide. &nbsp; And maybe they would like to make a guide themselves. &nbsp;</span><br></blockquote></p><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><p></p><p>Steven, asked and answered.</p><p><br></p><p>Regarding <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;">a store bought dovetail guide, these ones are $$$$$$:</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><br></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;">Brass angle ...</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><br></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><br></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><br></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><br></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;">Clear acrylic ...</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><br></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><br></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><br></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;">Or a Stanley sliding bevel ...</span></p><p><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></span></p><p><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><br></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><br></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;">One could mark them ala Frank Klausz, but my preference is to take the extra few minutes and produce tidy work.</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><br></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;">Regards from Perth</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;"><br></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important; float: none;">Derek</span></p>

[wmickley]

<p>

</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>For all intents and purposes, dovetails cut and glued (using modern glue) are not going to fail in normal use whether&nbsp;the dovetail angle looks average or elegant. Any angle between 6&nbsp;and 14 degrees cut by hand is just fine.</p><p><br></p><p>Simon</p><p>

</p><p><br></p><p>It sounds like you don't even have enough experience to know how skinny dovetails fail.</p><p><br></p><p>They don't fail because of glue failure. The pins&nbsp;just shear off and are usually still left in the drawer side. Still glued.</p><p><br></p><p>Dovetails with excessive angles fail on the drawer side because the dovetail has too much short grain at the edges of the tails.&nbsp;</p>