Increased cost of imported machinery?

[Admiral]

It seems like just leveling the playing field and remove incentives to 'offshore' might go quite a ways. I remember years ago ('70s?)a reason given for the U.S. inability to compete with Germany & Japan was that they had modern factories due to their old industrial base being destroyed. Many U.S. plants were WWII/post WWII vintage. I've wondered if there was an unspoken policy to let the postwar U.S. industrial base 'expire'. Then the environmental movement didn't exactly encourage rebuilding 'dirty' industry.

All very true.  Another thing leading to the diminished industrial base in the US during that period is the quarter to quarter short term financial performance metric of US based companies during that period, when industry in other countries took a much longer view of return on investment and building an industrial base ready to compete in the future.  So instead of taking the long term view and investing in plant infrastructure and employee training, the US based manufacturers beat its aging infrastructure (and employees) like a rented mule until it was not economic to continue, then outsourced the manufacturing, and shuttered its plants.  Some fudge blame unions for the latter, but really, it was the lack of sustained long term investment.  Tax policies and government support of industry in other countries also encouraged investment in plants and equipment, as well as in training employees.  The US woke up a bit and smelled the coffee, but still does not make strategic investment support of rising industries a priority.  It is worthy of noting that the US is second only to China in value added manufacturing, followed by Japan, Germany and Mexico, and the US's share of manufacturing is greater than that of Japan, Germany and Mexico together.  Link below makes interesting reading.....

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42135.pdf

[jteneyck]

I spent half of my corporate life at Carborundum Company, an old line industrial abrasives manufacturing company.  They were a text book example of riding their past glory into the ground.  There must have been some terrific people there in the '30's - '50's who developed their products and manufacturing processes.  The problem was nothing was improved or upgraded for 50 years until it was too late.  By then, competitors had invented superior products and no matter how much money they threw at it in desperation there was no saving it, and the company imploded and was sold off.  That turned out to be incredibly lucky for me, because I was with a division that became an independent company and we never repeated those mistakes.   That company is called Unifrax and it is now larger than Carborundum Company, once a Fortune 500 company, ever was. 

Managing month to month to meet investors' expectation is not easy nor fun, but it's not an excuse for not managing your company for long term survival and growth.  Most well managed companies prosper no matter their ownership situation. 

John

I forgot a key point. The group I was a part of makes components for catalytic converters, diesel particulate filters, and the like, ie the auto industry. Suppliers to the auto industry are under constant pressure to develop new and improved products and lower their cost. We increased our sales in that market from nothing to several hundred million $'s, while meeting cost reduction and profitability goals. The automotive market is global. My former company is all around the world, but we still manufacture those products exclusively in the US. The plant that makes most of those products is a union shop and we pay a very fair wage. Our costs are not low, but we are able to compete because we have really good people who work closely with our customers at many levels, modern equipment, and a drive to reduce waste and inefficiency. But foreign exchange is always a key issue to being competitive across international borders. Throwing tariffs into the mix would be incredibly disruptive, or worse.

John

[AHill]

...There are very few woodworking machines left being made in the US, it is possible to build out a new shop with nothing but US built machines but the basic 5 machines (TS, DP, BS, jointer and planer) are going to run you near 6 figures.

If you buy new.  If you buy used, you can get very high quality US made machines for a whole lot less than 6 figures.

[Huxleywood]

If you buy new.  If you buy used, you can get very high quality US made machines for a whole lot less than 6 figures.

That is more of a Colonel Obvious statement than a Captain Obvious statement.  I jointed boards on a Northfield jointer this morning that would be 17,000 new and used an Oliver bandsaw last night that would be over 30,000 if built today.  This thread seems to be about the cost of new machines not the fact one can buy old US iron for pennies on the dollar.  The fact remains if someone wants new US machines they can outfit a woodworking shop but no companies build the basic machines at near a price point that hobbyists will afford.

[jteneyck]

... The fact remains if someone wants new US machines they can outfit a woodworking shop but no companies build the basic machines at near a price point that hobbyists will afford.

If you watched the Northfield video posted several months ago and another, separately, on Felder's factory in Austria, you would know why one can't while the other can.  

John

[Huxleywood]

If you watched the Northfield video posted several months ago and another, separately, on Felder's factory in Austria, you would know why one can't while the other can.  

John

I know Jeff and have been in the Northfield "factory" on several occasions.  The Hammer and lower end Felder are something some hobbyists will afford but they aren't nearly at the level of the Northfield machines, now Felder/SCM/Martin et al indeed still make some seriously high end machines in the traditional machine lines but those are new car prices for each machine often well above Northfield prices.  In the end most industrial/large commercial traditional woodworking machines are going the way of the dinosaur, you see VERY few of them on display at IWF and AWFS and fewer every year.  This is one reason industrial sized traditional machines are dirt cheap and often can be bought for .05 a pound.

Plus Hammer and the lower end Felder machines have a lot of parts not made in Austria or any other European country which is the reason the low end is approachable with some hobbyist budgets.

[MichaelMouse]

It seems like just leveling the playing field and remove incentives to 'offshore' might go quite a ways. I remember years ago ('70s?)a reason given for the U.S. inability to compete with Germany & Japan was that they had modern factories due to their old industrial base being destroyed. Many U.S. plants were WWII/post WWII vintage. I've wondered if there was an unspoken policy to let the postwar U.S. industrial base 'expire'. Then the environmental movement didn't exactly encourage rebuilding 'dirty' industry.

More than that, retooling and reusing a building requires, in many cases, more upgrade cost than a new facility.  Which, of course, can take years of NIMBY lawsuits....

[jteneyck]

It's not about prohibitive policies, it's about management.  Austria and Germany, and most European countries for that matter have very strict environmental laws, work rules laws, more laws, rules, and regulations than anyone here can imagine.  And wages are high compared to here.  Yet they produce world class equipment at a price that some hobbiest woodworkers can justify.  Several folks here have a MM 16, for example.  How do they do that?  They do it because they continually invest in R&D, engineering, new manufacturing technology, and efficient work practices to drive down their manufacturing costs.  They produce products with much less labor than is common in old line industries here; they have to because wages are high.  They did it by investing in automation which reduces labor and makes a better a product.  They invested in the people required to run that automated equipment.  They changed from cast iron to steel in machine bases because it has less environmental impact, is more efficient in manufacturing, weighs less (shipping costs), and yes, costs less. 

You don't remain competitive using the same materials and technology for 50 years or more, not even 20 years.  My old company is dead proof of that.  Recognition of the need to constantly improve and to provide the means to do it is management's responsibility.  When they don't do their job, companies die.  The exterior stuff may hasten the demise of poorly managed companies, but well managed companies survive and prosper regardless of those circumstances.    

John

[Huxleywood]

It's not about prohibitive policies, it's about management.  Austria and Germany, and most European countries for that matter have very strict environmental laws, work rules laws, more laws, rules, and regulations than anyone here can imagine.  And wages are high compared to here.  Yet they produce world class equipment at a price that some hobbiest woodworkers can justify.  Several folks here have a MM 16, for example.  How do they do that?  They do it because they continually invest in R&D, engineering, new manufacturing technology, and efficient work practices to drive down their manufacturing costs.  They produce products with much less labor than is common in old line industries here; they have to because wages are high.  They did it by investing in automation which reduces labor and makes a better a product.  They invested in the people required to run that automated equipment.  They changed from cast iron to steel in machine bases because it has less environmental impact, is more efficient in manufacturing, weighs less (shipping costs), and yes, costs less. 

You don't remain competitive using the same materials and technology for 50 years or more, not even 20 years.  My old company is dead proof of that.  Recognition of the need to constantly improve and to provide the means to do it is management's responsibility.  When they don't do their job, companies die.  The exterior stuff may hasten the demise of poorly managed companies, but well managed companies survive and prosper regardless of those circumstances.    

John

First, let me say I don't disagree with your overall premise but there are a lot of holes in your example of Felder and the MM16.

Felder is able to build their lower end traditional equipment and sell it at upper end hobbyist level because the majority of the major parts are made in Asia.  

Interesting you picked a bandsaw to illustrate R&D/engineering when bandsaw tech has been "flat" for I don't know 60 years...  The reason Europe changed from cast machines to steel was the decimation of the manufacturing base of cast iron during WWII and they needed to be able to make quick and cheap machines to rebuild their industry, it did force them to increase tolerances due to the lack of mass and lower vibration dampening of folded steel frame.  While Centauro builds the best steel framed saws today they still can't match a new Northfield, plus if you ever see the bandsaw section of Centauro, ACM and the old Agazzani factories none of them scream high tech.

Even though Northfield is a "low" tech "factory" you won't find a Felder with the same quality of tables, there are still plenty of 50 year old and older Porter, Yates, Northfield and Oliver jointers with tables flatter than anything that comes out of Hall in Tirol.  The bottom line is outside of Italian bandsaws almost no hobbyists buy truly made in Europe machines even though some erroneously think they do.  

Just to put in perspective what true made in Europe machines cost consider the Altendorf WA8 is their wholly made in China saw and ran $15,000 10 years ago (not sure what it is now) and the similar specced F-45 was right at $30,000 then.  My point being the lower end stuff from Europen manufacturers have a lot of Asian flair in them.

Again, I agree with the overall point you are making.

FWIW all my bandsaws are either fully US or Italian built it is the one machine I refuse to compromise on.

[jteneyck]

There are holes in most stories but I was trying to illustrate the underlying reasons several European wood working machine makers have prospered while most American ones are gone.  I know you don't disagree.  The remaining US companies like Northfield can't produce a machine for any but the most affluent hobbiest.  It doesn't matter if their machines are flatter, run smoother, last longer, etc. if almost no one can afford them.  Very few hobbiests could appreciate the difference anyway, myself likely included.  After all, I just bought a Grizzly G0636X bandsaw and couldn't be happier.  So I didn't even make it up to a MM16, much less a Northfield.  And I'm pretty sure it will serve me well for as long as I'm still able to push wood through it, and then the next guy, too.  

FWIW, I think it's smart to outsource what someone else can do better, more cheaply, more timely, etc.  It's your name on the machine, but you don't have to make all the parts, as is the case in most every industry.  

I recognize there is a market for the best of the best in any product category.  I hope for Northfield's sake that market is large enough to sustain them. 

John