Miter saw fence problem: solved! (in theory at least)

[KingwoodFan1989]

Well, I got some screws earlier. Unfortunately, they didn't stock the button head socket screws at Home Depot in the metric threads, so I bought some button head machine screws and some hex head bolts. I think the machine screws will work well as they have a wider surface on the undersides. However, there's a small lip inside the channel on the fence that prevents the washers from sitting flat, so I think I might need to file down a flat spot on the edges of the washers. I'm not sure if it'll allow for the fence extensions to be used or not, but it'll be a close call either way. While typing this, I realized I forgot to pick up a couple of screws and nuts to help me do fine adjustments like Stwood showed me in the other thread...I'll have to get those tomorrow.

I also checked out two of the miter saws at Home Depot to see what kind of screws they used. They were the DeWalt 12" slider (battery powered) and Milwaukee's version of the same thing. The DeWalt still used the same screws, but they were staggered rather than all in line with each other, which I'd imagine would make adjustment even more of a pain in the butt. The Milwaukee had button head screws, but it seemed they had round spots on both sides of the fence channel that conformed perfectly to those screws, which would also make it hard to achieve any significant adjustment.

Why the heck do they make the saws this way? I understand framers and people who do rough carpentry (professional, DIY, and everything in between) only require things to be within about 1/16" of perfect, but it doesn't seem like it would take a whole lot for these companies to make the fences a bit wider and make elongated holes (about 1/16" wider than the screw threads) for the screws to go through. That way, they could test a few saws that come off the line to make sure the fences are adjustable, and then they wouldn't even need to install the fences! They could just box them up and have the customer take 5 minutes (or 10-15 if you're REALLY going for perfection) to install and adjust it themselves. That way, ALL of the customers and their various tolerance levels have their needs met, not just the framers and carpenters. It just makes no sense why it's not done this way.

[Phil Thien]

Why the heck do they make the saws this way? I understand framers and people who do rough carpentry (professional, DIY, and everything in between) only require things to be within about 1/16" of perfect, but it doesn't seem like it would take a whole lot for these companies to make the fences a bit wider and make elongated holes (about 1/16" wider than the screw threads) for the screws to go through.

I think you just answered your own question.  Framers want them close enough, and never go any further out of whack.

I once purchased an Hitachi slider and replaced the fence with a long piece of aluminum angle, on which I slid a stop block for repetitive cuts.  I was using the setup to put bevels on the ends of 12-inch or so wide pieces.

I thought that as soon as I was done with that project, that I'd reinstall the factory fence.

But I never did, I preferred the simple aluminum angle fence.

[KingwoodFan1989]

I think you just answered your own question.  Framers want them close enough, and never go any further out of whack.

But why pander to just the framers when you could make it adjustable enough for EVERYBODY? Even if framers are the majority buyer, it would be pretty easy to switch to making elongated holes. Plus, I'm sure if you tightened the screws down enough it would take a lot to knock the fence out of whack anyway. Either that or they should make an optional fence that DOES have elongated holes that those of us who require decent or better accuracy can purchase either separately or as an add on item for an additional fee. It just feels so sketchy to have to use random parts from a hardware store to get what you need rather than having what you need in the box or as an official accessory (even if that official accessory is several times the cost of some random screws and washers from a hardware store). Maybe I'm too OCD about it, but as I've said a few times before, I like to be able to to recommend a product as it comes from the company. If that can't be done, the next best thing in my opinion would be if that company offered an upgrade or alternative part that would work for situations where hair-splitting accuracy and adjustability options are ideal.

Maybe when DeWalt (hopefully) responds to me this next week, I can send them a suggestion for an optional, widely adjustable fence for their miter saws. I know companies are usually wary of accepting outside advice for products in any specific detail (since I've heard in the past they'd have to give you credit and possibly commission you for using your idea), but I'm sure just taking the general idea from customers and making their own version that would allow for the same flexibility would be within a more reasonable realm (at least if they hear the suggestions from enough people).

[Tapper]

57 "replies" in two threads - are we near the end?

Doug

[KingwoodFan1989]

57 "replies" in two threads - are we near the end?

Doug

Yes, all I need to do is get the last couple things at the store tomorrow, get the saw dialed in the best I can, and I'll just make a final post on the results in this thread unless someone else asks or says something further about it.

Was I getting on your nerves or something? I know I've dragged this topic on for many posts between these two threads, so I can understand why you might be annoyed. If you were, you wouldn't be the first by any stretch, haha. That's what I get for being so picky!

[KyleD]

Yes, all I need to do is get the last couple things at the store tomorrow, get the saw dialed in the best I can, and I'll just make a final post on the results in this thread unless someone else asks or says something further about it.

Was I getting on your nerves or something? I know I've dragged this topic on for many posts between these two threads, so I can understand why you might be annoyed. If you were, you wouldn't be the first by any stretch, haha. That's what I get for being so picky!

KingswoodFan1989: I would not worry about annoying people on this forum. You stayed on subject and it is definitely woodworking specific. At one time, I was a lot like you in wondering why the manufacturers do the things they do seemingly without the feedback of the people who actually buy and use their tools. I came to the conclusion that the manufacturers are so far removed from the users it is a lost cause to try to get their attention on issues with their tools. This cuts both ways. We do enjoy relatively cheap tools these days but have little to no say in their manufacture or quality.

This world needs people like you who return tools or contact the manufacturers to point out these obvious flaws. If enough of us did this maybe they would listen. I am at the other end of the spectrum in that I am willing to simply adapt the tools to work for my needs. If there were to many people like myself the manufacturers would get no feedback. 

Now please try to get the manufacturers to offer a decent drill press. I gave up looking at the current crop and settled for a powermatic that is the same age as myself. It is a great tool but was a lot of work to find and restore to usable condition. It replaced a Delta 17-900 I owned that was pitifully inadequate in its design and manufacture no matter what I did to try and improve or adapt it.

[Phil Thien]

Yes, all I need to do is get the last couple things at the store tomorrow, get the saw dialed in the best I can, and I'll just make a final post on the results in this thread unless someone else asks or says something further about it.

Was I getting on your nerves or something? I know I've dragged this topic on for many posts between these two threads, so I can understand why you might be annoyed. If you were, you wouldn't be the first by any stretch, haha. That's what I get for being so picky!

You're fine, he is just having some fun.

Be picky.

[Stwood_]

57 "replies" in two threads - are we near the end?

Doug

 

If no one else replied to threads, you would be awful lonely in here.

[jteneyck]

KingswoodFan1989: I would not worry about annoying people on this forum. You stayed on subject and it is definitely woodworking specific. At one time, I was a lot like you in wondering why the manufacturers do the things they do seemingly without the feedback of the people who actually buy and use their tools. I came to the conclusion that the manufacturers are so far removed from the users it is a lost cause to try to get their attention on issues with their tools. This cuts both ways. We do enjoy relatively cheap tools these days but have little to no say in their manufacture or quality.

This world needs people like you who return tools or contact the manufacturers to point out these obvious flaws. If enough of us did this maybe they would listen. I am at the other end of the spectrum in that I am willing to simply adapt the tools to work for my needs. If there were to many people like myself the manufacturers would get no feedback. 

Now please try to get the manufacturers to offer a decent drill press. I gave up looking at the current crop and settled for a powermatic that is the same age as myself. It is a great tool but was a lot of work to find and restore to usable condition. It replaced a Delta 17-900 I owned that was pitifully inadequate in its design and manufacture no matter what I did to try and improve or adapt it.

It's not that manufacturers are completely out of touch with their customers, it's more about who the target customer is and inevitable competitive pressures.  Miter saws aren't targeted at fine furniture makers, they are made for contractors, trim installers, and mostly for DIY'ers.  If you want high precision you use a table saw sled or well tuned RAS.  I'm not saying a miter saw can't be adjusted for high precision, only that that was not the primary objective of most manufacturers.  When someone like the OP tries to dial one in so it will cut precisely they uncover the short cuts the manufacturers took so they could meet a certain price point.  Sometimes, it just requires some extra time to adjust the saw; other times, you end up having to re-engineer something, and sometimes no amount of rework will ever make it right.  
If you want really high precision you have to start with the right machine, or use a shooting board.  
John

[Handplanesandmore]

 

If no one else replied to threads, you would be awful lonely in here.

I lost interest in the thread when the King reported that he received a new fence from Dewalt, because to me, if the new fence still did not work, it was time to return the purchase. In fact, I wouldn't even ask for a new fence (or part) in the first place for a brand new saw, if that was an integral part which required assembly, etc. I'd either get another one, or another brand.

The best thing to let Dewalt know that its saw sucks is not to try to fix it and share how it is fixed or what can be improved, but to hurt its bottom line: returns are costly to vendors. Remember, you are not dealing with Dewalt's CEO or Chairman, who only cares about the financial numbers. The front-line people in 99% of cases won't share what they come across in their day job with those who make decisions (mostly because of company culture that does not encourage "rocking the boat.").

But, I was glad to see the thread going on because this is what the forum is all about: people making noises and not going silent. Among the several woodworking forums where I troll, oops, visit, this is the second quietest one; the quietest one is almost dead! It is more like a private club with just a few old men (& women?) playing bridge...with dead silence in the background. The busiest one, which I am sure some of you visit, has new topics generated everyday, and some topics have over 100 replies each before they "end" or get locked or deleted!

I, for one, would like the King's two threads together to go well past 60 posts....

Now, if precision really matters in a miter saw, the Kapex (4 to 5 times the price of a Dewalt?) is the best shot one can try. Be warned, some users reported motor issues with it, but for others who own it to make furniture, they swear no others deliver anything close.

Simon