Looking to upgrade to a better miter saw

[KingwoodFan1989]

YMMV

I've seen this acronym used here and there...what the heck does it mean, though?

[Stwood_]

I've seen this acronym used here and there...what the heck does it mean, though?

Your Mileage May Vary

[The Famous Grouse]

Don't base your purchase decisions on online reviews.  The problem with most reviewers is they don't know what they don't know and they don't have enough experience with other products to really offer comparative information.  Often they blame a product for what amounts to user error.

For precision woodworking (as opposed to rough carpentry or construction), IMO buy the most accurate saw that has enough crosscut capacity to handle 90% of your work.  My experience has been the bigger the crosscut capacity, the more issues the saw has with accuracy and staying accurate.  

When is the last time you NEEDED to crosscut 10 inches?  Be honest, how many times in the last year did you have to make such a cut?  Then compare that to the many, many cuts you make that are less than 10 inches in width. If one cut out of 10 isn't a 10-inch size, you are buying the wrong saw IMO.  

I'm set up with a Milwaukee Magnum 10 inch miter saw that crosscuts 5.5 inches.  I check this saw for setup once a year at 45 R, 0, and 45 left and I have not had to adjust its setup for a decade.  Rock solid and stays dead on.

About 20 times a year, I'll have a crosscut to make that is greater than 5.5 inches, but not so large that it doesn't require my track saw.  These cuts between 6 and 14 inches are easily done with a crosscut sled on my table saw.  

This is still one area where complexity interferes with accuracy, so buying bigger and more complex saws can make things harder, not easier.  Overbuying "because you might need it" makes the majority of your work harder because setup and accuracy need to be maintained.

Grouse

[KingwoodFan1989]

Don't base your purchase decisions on online reviews.  The problem with most reviewers is they don't know what they don't know and they don't have enough experience with other products to really offer comparative information.  Often they blame a product for what amounts to user error.

For precision woodworking (as opposed to rough carpentry or construction), IMO buy the most accurate saw that has enough crosscut capacity to handle 90% of your work.  My experience has been the bigger the crosscut capacity, the more issues the saw has with accuracy and staying accurate.  

When is the last time you NEEDED to crosscut 10 inches?  Be honest, how many times in the last year did you have to make such a cut?  Then compare that to the many, many cuts you make that are less than 10 inches in width. If one cut out of 10 isn't a 10-inch size, you are buying the wrong saw IMO.  

I'm set up with a Milwaukee Magnum 10 inch miter saw that crosscuts 5.5 inches.  I check this saw for setup once a year at 45 R, 0, and 45 left and I have not had to adjust its setup for a decade.  Rock solid and stays dead on.

First off, I'm aware of people playing the blame game on the tool (mostly for lack of features that most people don't really need). Some reviews are done by pros or non-pros who have significant experience, though, so there is some value to be found in online reviews.

You do make a good point as far as not over-buying and have caused me to rethink some stuff here, though. 6-10" is just the outer bounds of what I work with most of the time. There is a decent percentage of stuff less than that, but not enough to where the saw you have would be sufficient for me. I'd say if you take all of my projects (past, planned, and current) into account, it's probably around 5% of the time I'd cut something 10" or over outside the context of rough cutting stuff down to length. I'd estimate a good 50% or more of my cuts are between just over 6" to 8" wide. Smaller stuff is probably around 25-30% of my cuts. These will obviously vary depending on the project, though. For example, If I'm making a frame, pretty much 100% of my cuts, crosscuts AND miters, will be less than 6" of board width. If I'm building a piece of furniture, it'll be more like 70% between 6" and 8" wide, 20-25% less than that, and the remainder being over 8". Thus, for the average furniture project, 5-10% of my cuts would be over 8". For certain projects that I plan to do at some point (large bookshelves, for example), I'm sure around 90% of my crosscuts would be around 10" wide.

With all this in mind, I was looking at DeWalt's 716, a non-sliding 12" that also has the back fence feature, so when the time comes to cut something up to around 10" wide without having to flip the board, I could just use that. The 716 looks to have good reviews, but I'll have to look into it more. For the sake of argument, let's just say I decide on the 716...if, when I'm ready to buy it the 709 slider is on sale (I've seen it go to about the same price as the 716 is now), I'll honestly go with that one since it's better capacity for the same (or close to the same) amount of money. Plus, sliders can still be plenty accurate. Either way, thanks for mentioning the concept of analyzing the percentages of cut widths. 

Heck, I've been considering, when I upgrade to a bigger jointer, getting an 8" rather than a 12". I think I'll end up using mostly plywood for bookshelf-type projects (where you end up with a lot of 10" and wider stuff and it's easiest to use a single wide piece rather than gluing up a bunch of narrower boards). That stuff doesn't need to be face jointed like solid wood.

[Kansas City Fireslayer]

I didn’t read every post in this thread as it’s gotten pretty long but a couple things I would consider. Do you buy RS lumber and if so, what do you crosscut it with? I don’t have a RAS and I won’t wrestle 6-8’ long boards to crosscut on my TS. That said, a lot of the RS lumber I’ve bought is 6-12” wide and it needs to be crosscut. I do mine on my slider—it’s quick, easy and very accurate. I can’t imagine not having it.

[KingwoodFan1989]

I didn’t read every post in this thread as it’s gotten pretty long but a couple things I would consider.  Do you buy RS lumber and if so, what do you crosscut it with?  I don’t have a RAS and I won’t wrestle 6-8’ long boards to crosscut on my TS.  That said, a lot of the RS lumber I’ve bought is 6-12” wide and it needs to be crosscut.  I do mine on my slider—it’s quick, easy and very accurate.  I can’t imagine not having it.

I mostly use my miter saw, but I have to flip boards A LOT. In my experience, their width depends on the species as well as how picky I need to be when selecting boards. For example, I bought some Poplar that was S2S and that was between 8" and 12" wide depending on which board it was. The Brazilian Cherry I bought for the same project was pretty much totally in the rough and it was between 5" and 7". However, with the Poplar I wasn't being picky with the grain as it's just for drawer boxes that will only be seen when the drawers are opened, so I just picked out a couple boards that looked like they would yield what I needed plus some extra material to practice with (hand cut dovetails, specifically). The worst thing is, I'm having to rip those boards down to fit them on my jointer (as they aren't perfectly flat) and then glue them back together to get 7" boards, which is also too wide for my cruddy Ridgid 10" non-slider to do in one go. With the Brazilian Cherry, I needed to be more picky about the color and grain, and I was seeking specifically for rift and quarter sawn boards. Not a big fan of cathedral grain, TBH. I had to dig through the pile and there were many boards I had to pass up simply because of their width. Yes, most of that is because of my jointer only being 6" wide, but again, my miter saw can only handle up to 6" in one chop at max. There are plenty of boards that I've seen that are at least 7-8" wide that I've had to pass up due to my tools not being able to handle their width. However, as I pointed out in my previous post in this thread, DeWalt's 716 non-slider has a special setup that can allow for up to about 9.5" of cutting width. That would probably fulfill 85-90% of my needs right there, and it's $350 at Amazon, which puts it within my budget. But as I said, I still haven't counted out the 709, which has short rails and does 9.5" standard (only at 90 degrees, though). It all depends if it goes on sale in the next few months. If not, I'll probably go with the 716 and use the special setup when I have a need to cut stuff wider than about 7.5". Not sure of any other non-sliders that are about $350 at max that can also potentially cut up to what the 716 can, but if anybody knows of one, I'd be glad to look it up (not a fan of Ridgid or Ryobi saws, though). As a last note, that Hitachi 12" slider is still tempting as well, TBH. It would also need to go on sale like it did this past Christmas if I wanted to get it, though. Decisions, decisions...

[Kansas City Fireslayer]

If you have to flip a lot of boards to crosscut, get the most crosscut capacity you can. Flipping boards for deadnuts crosscuts is a crap shoot and unreliable. Even at 10% of your cuts, they all count but you can’t straight shot cut what you can’t cut. Save your money and only cry once.

[KingwoodFan1989]

Save your money and only cry once.

I'm trying to get something that's BOTH affordable and will fit my needs. It's beginning to look like I'm either going to go with one of three saws: the DeWalt 716 or, if one of them go on sale, the DeWalt 709 or Hitachi's 12" slider. I'm still a bit open to used models, but all of those saws (at least when the latter two are on sale) are in my price range new, so that's a win-win situation. I just wish these refurbished sellers didn't have such cruddy reviews (or average at best, in some cases). 

I feel like buying one of the more top end models would be redundant and ultimately a waste of money. A lot of the features that are missing on the DeWalt 709, for example, are things I could either do without (laser and standard crosscup capacity up to 12" wide) or things I would never dream of using on a miter saw (depth stop). Yes, the Kapex and Bosch glide are awesome, but they're expensive and other than the extreme surgical precision of the Kapex and the nearly friction-free sliding action of the Bosch Glide (as well as some other possible extra features), I can get basically the same thing for what I need out of a cheaper Hitachi or DeWalt slider (or possibly non-slider in the case of DeWalt's 716 with the "back fence" feature).

[Kansas City Fireslayer]

I agree. The most appealing feature of the Kapex is the DC, IMO. If my saw died tomorrow, I’d look for another 8 1/4-10” blade slider with 12” crosscut. I had too much blade deflection with my old 12” non slider Dewalt. DW 705 I believe...with a Systi-matic blade.

[KingwoodFan1989]

The most appealing feature of the Kapex is the DC, IMO. 

What does DC mean here?