Screwed up wiring?

[Scouter]

I would second srv's bet on the donughts, great diagram by the way.   Scouter,  do a bunch of tests and  make sure you feel comfortable you understand how it is working, even if it is working some way other than srv's diagram, before you go changing.  Right now it works.  It may be srv's diagram, or some other, but it does work and we need to make sure we understand how before you start playing with it.  

Working from srv's diagram,  remove the white wire from S1 or S2,  cap it, and then turn the power back on.  Does the light switch work and not the fan?  Then try removing the white on S2 and hooking it to S1 -  does the fan switch work, and not the light?  Finally,  unscrew the light bulb, and check to see if  there is power measured between the black and the white on S1 -  if srv's diagram is correct, you should not see any power.

Will do. Have to wait until after the holiday (NY) now, else SWMBO will make my life a living hell for all of next year. Bathroom and a few outlets in the kitchen share the breaker. She was gracious when we thought it would be a simple switch swap, the added work will cut into too much of her cooking time.

Thanks everyone, have a good NY eve.

[barryvabeach]

Actually, I think the time will work to your advantage.  A few times in the past I was working on wiring and kept asking how in the world was this wired -  but after taking some time off on other projects,  it eventually clicked.  Have a nice NY.

[TDKPE]

Bathroom and a few outlets in the kitchen share the breaker. 

Old house?  Or home-brew remodel work?

(Hint: NEC doesn't allow the kitchen small appliance branch circuits, aka counter top receptacles on two or more circuits, so share with anything else other than all of the low wall receptacles in the kitchen, breakfast room, pantry, and dining room, and a recessed electric wall clock receptacle, and controls/ignitors for gas cooktops and ranges, the last two of which are super low power loads.)

[Scouter]

Old house?  Or home-brew remodel work?

(Hint: NEC doesn't allow the kitchen small appliance branch circuits, aka counter top receptacles on two or more circuits, so share with anything else other than all of the low wall receptacles in the kitchen, breakfast room, pantry, and dining room, and a recessed electric wall clock receptacle, and controls/ignitors for gas cooktops and ranges, the last two of which are super low power loads.)

Again, I am confused about what you are saying here.

Are you saying the kitchen wall outlets have to be split into more than one breaker?

Or are you saying the kitchen outlets can't be on the same breaker as other rooms?

Right now the microwave, range (220v), and refrigerator each have a separate circuit. Everything else is on a breaker shared with the other rooms I mentioned. Basically, what they did was to run everything on the back side of the house on one breaker, everything on the front side on another.

Yes, this is an old house, c. 1950's. It was a farming community/rural area back then, you could get away with just about anything so long as the house didn't catch fire while you were working on it.

[TDKPE]

Again, I am confused about what you are saying here.

Are you saying the kitchen wall outlets have to be split into more than one breaker?  Yes, but each duplex receptacle doesn't have to be split (I think they do in Canada, though).  

Or are you saying the kitchen outlets can't be on the same breaker as other rooms?  Yes.

Right now the microwave, range (220v), and refrigerator each have a separate circuit. Everything else is on a breaker shared with the other rooms I mentioned. Basically, what they did was to run everything on the back side of the house on one breaker, everything on the front side on another.  Yikes!

Yes, this is an old house, c. 1950's. It was a farming community/rural area back then, you could get away with just about anything so long as the house didn't catch fire while you were working on it.  That explains it, partially.  It was also long ago, and household loads were much less, so much less was needed.  My parents' house is pretty similar, and a couple of decades older.

You don't have to meet current NEC requirements - it's old, and therefore grandfathered.  If it works for you, then I wouldn't worry about it.

But current requirements are for two or more 20A receptacle circuits serving kitchen counter tops (small appliance branch circuits, or SABC) with receptacles spaced so no part of the counter/backsplash line is more than 24" from a receptacle (vertical line up to the receptacle), for counters 12" or wider not counting sinks, cooktops, etc., plus islands and peninsulas.  Also on those two or more circuits are the wall receptacles everywhere else in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, and dining room.  Nothing else is supposed to be on those circuits other than the refrigerator, but that can be on its own circuit, which you have (excellent).  Most of that predates my old code books.


Not long ago outdoor GFCI receptacles were on the SABC's.  Like mine.  No longer allowed.  Lights not on those circuits.  Range hoods, microwave ovens (if in a garage or other dedicated space), dishwashers, garbage disposals, etc. - not on the SABC's, and most of those should be on their own circuit.  

I didn't realize your house was of that vintage.  I thought maybe someone tapped off of existing kitchen circuits for a bathroom remodel, which is a common sort of thing folks do.  Like the i-d-I-o-t owner of my last house, where I ended up pretty much doubling the number of branch circuits do to overload.  


I wouldn't worry about any of it as long as nothing is overloaded.  Sorry for stirring things up.  

[KC]

You don't have to meet current NEC requirements - it's old, and therefore grandfathered.  If it works for you, then I wouldn't worry about it.

But current requirements are for two or more 20A receptacle circuits serving kitchen counter tops (small appliance branch circuits, or SABC) with receptacles spaced so no part of the counter/backsplash line is more than 24" from a receptacle (vertical line up to the receptacle), for counters 12" or wider not counting sinks, cooktops, etc., plus islands and peninsulas.  Also on those two or more circuits are the wall receptacles everywhere else in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, and dining room.  Nothing else is supposed to be on those circuits other than the refrigerator, but that can be on its own circuit, which you have (excellent).  Most of that predates my old code books.


Not long ago outdoor GFCI receptacles were on the SABC's.  Like mine.  No longer allowed.  Lights not on those circuits.  Range hoods, microwave ovens (if in a garage or other dedicated space), dishwashers, garbage disposals, etc. - not on the SABC's, and most of those should be on their own circuit.  

I didn't realize your house was of that vintage.  I thought maybe someone tapped off of existing kitchen circuits for a bathroom remodel, which is a common sort of thing folks do.  Like the i-d-I-o-t owner of my last house, where I ended up pretty much doubling the number of branch circuits do to overload.  


I wouldn't worry about any of it as long as nothing is overloaded.  Sorry for stirring things up.  

My 100 YO house in Nebraska still has 100A main service and an old panel with pushmatic breakers.  All works fine... but I'm gonna build a big garage with dedicated shop space, so I'll be at least having that main upgraded before long.  At what point would I be on the hook to bring the whole house up to code (as to dedicated circuits and such).   I can see that being an absolute nightmare without a full gut.  

[TDKPE]

My 100 YO house in Nebraska still has 100A main service and an old panel with pushmatic breakers.  All works fine... but I'm gonna build a big garage with dedicated shop space, so I'll be at least having that main upgraded before long.  At what point would I be on the hook to bring the whole house up to code (as to dedicated circuits and such).   I can see that being an absolute nightmare without a full gut.  

My folks’ house, which I grew up in, has 100A from a Pushmatic Bulldog panel.  Still works fine, too.

I don’t think upgrading your panel would trigger a full rewire, and even increasing your service, nor adding a garage.  Too expensive, and you could always claim the panel is too small, too old, and too dangerous (whether or not it is doesn’t matter - you want to improve the safety of your residence).  If you remodel your kitchen, though, you’d almost certainly have to bring that room up to code, and that probably means adding a lot of circuits, if my folks’ house is in any way similar.  But that’s up to the local AHJ, and that’s a real wild card.  

I’m not even sure you need to upgrade your service just for adding a garage, unless you’re adding a lot of additional load.  Like electric heat, or big A/C.  LED lighting isn’t that much.  Shop tools are meh - a machine or two running concurrently, under light load, isn’t much additional load, and if you’re doing that already, it’s not any additional load.  Doesn’t matter how many circuits; it matters how much additional load.

Heck, when I was a kid, I used to cut steel with my 55A 240V arc welder at its full 230A output.  Never blew a breaker, though my Dad told me he could see the meter spin like a frisbee.  Didn’t occur to me that he might have wanted some money for all that juice I was using ha ha.

[KC]

My folks’ house, which I grew up in, has 100A from a Pushmatic Bulldog panel.  Still works fine, too.

I don’t think upgrading your panel would trigger a full rewire, and even increasing your service, nor adding a garage.  Too expensive, and you could always claim the panel is too small, too old, and too dangerous (whether or not it is doesn’t matter - you want to improve the safety of your residence).  If you remodel your kitchen, though, you’d almost certainly have to bring that room up to code, and that probably means adding a lot of circuits, if my folks’ house is in any way similar.  But that’s up to the local AHJ, and that’s a real wild card.  

I’m not even sure you need to upgrade your service just for adding a garage, unless you’re adding a lot of additional load.  Like electric heat, or big A/C.  LED lighting isn’t that much.  Shop tools are meh - a machine or two running concurrently, under light load, isn’t much additional load, and if you’re doing that already, it’s not any additional load.  Doesn’t matter how many circuits; it matters how much additional load.

Heck, when I was a kid, I used to cut steel with my 55A 240V arc welder at its full 230A output.  Never blew a breaker, though my Dad told me he could see the meter spin like a frisbee.  Didn’t occur to me that he might have wanted some money for all that juice I was using ha ha.

I did redo the kitchen, but the only electric 'work' was moving the range outlet a few inches.

[Scouter]

You don't have to meet current NEC requirements - it's old, and therefore grandfathered.  If it works for you, then I wouldn't worry about it.

I didn't realize your house was of that vintage.  I thought maybe someone tapped off of existing kitchen circuits for a bathroom remodel, which is a common sort of thing folks do.  Like the i-d-I-o-t owner of my last house, where I ended up pretty much doubling the number of branch circuits do to overload.  


I wouldn't worry about any of it as long as nothing is overloaded.  Sorry for stirring things up.  

No worries. The only reason the fridge and microwave are on different circuits is because I did that when we bought our microwave (over 30 years ago, and still working!). I've done what I can when I had reason to, like putting all wire junctions in a box (many weren't). But some things, like this bathroom, can't be done because of how they wired things. I'm not going to rip walls apart to run new wires, but if I can pull it through with fish tape I will.

One of my first wiring projects was to break up the circuits in the garage, as that is my woodshop. My RAS is on it's on 220v line, the rest of the outlets are on two different lines. Plus I had our service upgraded to 200a (paid a pro for that one). I have run into a lot of things that make you scratch your head. Like a double gang box where one outlet or switch is grounded but the other isn't.

[TDKPE]

I did redo the kitchen, but the only electric 'work' was moving the range outlet a few inches.

Yeah, I should clarify - if you pull a permit, rip out the walls or strip off drywall, move things around, and so on (like I did), depending on the local authorities, you’d almost certainly have to bring the electric in that room up to whatever code cycle is current in your area.  

I even had to add hard-wired smoke detectors to each bedroom, plus in each area outside of bedrooms, plus on each floor including the basement, all linked.  They made it sound like hardwiring was code, but they kind of softened and said they can’t really force anyone to pull wiring and that battery units would also be acceptable.  I pulled wire, because I could, and I wanted them linked (wireless wasn’t a thing then).  


And technically, moving a 3-wire, ungrounded range or dryer receptacle would require upgrading to a 4-wire, grounded type.