My first hand-cut dovetails

[Philip1231]

I think its funny (weird, strange, maybe stupid) that woodworkers are so enamored by DT joints.  FWW even uses the joint as their logo.  My brother once said there is no such thing as perfect dovetails.  I like the looks of nice dovetails and lots of guys here on this forum do a real nice job of them.  But the reality is, they really don't need to be pretty to function and they don't need to be a tight as we make them.  Its (here comes WN blasphemy) NOT THAT IMPORTANT OF A JOINT.  If 65% of your dovetails were tight-ish, you'd have a successful carcase.

In contrast, the joint that is hard to cut and needs to be darn near perfect to function is the M&T. M&T are used for actual important stuff like chairs, houses, windows, work benches etc. Hand cut dovetails are a rite of passage around here.  What about hand cut M&Ts?

Was talking to a craftsman last week about making some doors for my barn project. He said he made doors the traditional way.  "Yeah", hey said, "Just like they did it back in the day with dowels and everything".

I guess that's a step up from biscuits. I think had I said "wedged thru tenons" he wouldn't have known what I was talking about. So that's one more thing I'll be building myself.

For better or worse, I think the DT joint has become a test of a woodworkers skill.  This test of craftsmanship helps some of us up our game, so to speak. I'm tickled pink when I cut a set of respectable dovetails. It doesn't always work out that way, but over time, I've gotten better at it. It provides a target to shoot for: a goal that helps us improve our skills. I get great satisfaction when I end up with some nice DTs. Its part of the journey that many amateur woodworkers embark on, and its one that I think is worth pursuing. I could be completely wrong, but I reserve the right to be wrong on any topic at any time

[adamcherubini]

For better or worse, I think the DT joint has become a test of a woodworkers skill.  This test of craftsmanship helps some of us up our game, so to speak. I'm tickled pink when I cut a set of respectable dovetails. It doesn't always work out that way, but over time, I've gotten better at it. It provides a target to shoot for: a goal that helps us improve our skills. I get great satisfaction when I end up with some nice DTs. Its part of the journey that many amateur woodworkers embark on, and its one that I think is worth pursuing. I could be completely wrong, but I reserve the right to be wrong on any topic at any time

I agree to the extent that a dt joint helps one learn to saw and chisel. And I think if guys are smart they’d saw and chisel the same way for multiple joints so that the skills are transferable.

But a M&T is a joint that is required for structural work. They offer similar skill development opportunities. I get that’s it’s not pretty or in some cases not even visible.

I guess my point is: while woodworkers are impressed by dovetails, they are not functionally important joints so no one should feel bad about not making them perfect. A mortise and tenon is a joint one really should master before building things that require good m&t joints (like chairs tables, etc)

[Philip1231]

I agree to the extent that a dt joint helps one learn to saw and chisel. And I think if guys are smart they’d saw and chisel the same way for multiple joints so that the skills are transferable.

But a M&T is a joint that is required for structural work. They offer similar skill development opportunities. I get that’s it’s not pretty or in some cases not even visible.

I guess my point is: while woodworkers are impressed by dovetails, they are not functionally important joints so no one should feel bad about not making them perfect. A mortise and tenon is a joint one really should master before building things that require good m&t joints (like chairs tables, etc)

No disagreement with the importance of mastering the M&T joint: it was the first major league joint I learned to execute when I first got into woodworking. I made a series of end tables with mortises cut with a mortise chisel and mallet, and tenons cut with a saw, and refined with a router plane and chisel, and (and I know I am the odd man out here) a shoulder plane. It seemed to me at the time that this joint, although challenging, was doable. Back then, DT joints to me were liking climbing Everest: many dream of it, but few actually accomplish it. Comparing the two joints, IMO, the M&T is more accessible to the average serious amateur. The DT joint just has so many
ways of making you miserable: so many opportunities to get it wrong. With the M&T joint, I don't think it is the same challenge. And of course, when you show off your DT joints (I covered half of the DT joints with molding on a recent piece I built, and I thought it was a shame to hide them) you have something to put on display: to wow the crowds. With the M&T, you can tell someone that its a hand cut M&T, but the usual response from a non-woodworker is: Oh, OK. Show that same spectator the DT joint, and you might get a WOW!
I have not mastered either joint: my M&T joints don't always end up with that perfect friction fit. I have trouble at times getting them perfectly plumb and end up shaving off some of the tenon (or part of the mortise) to get the joint straight and true. But the more I do, the less tuning they seem to need. Its a shame no one can see this progress: my very first M&T and my most recent M&T look, from the outside at least, comparable in all respects.

[Handplanesandmore]

DTs and M&Ts are really two different types of joints for different applications, one more for carcases and boxes (including drawers) and the other where butt joints are not strong enough as the joinery. I don't consider one being more difficult than the other, as both demanding more or the less the same sawing skill.

Speaking of DTs, I was surprised to be told that Michael Pekovich used a table saw, bandsaw and router, supplemented by chisels, to cut dovetails in one of his fw videos. Why not just use a dovetail jig and router if his intention was to make a video for those who have had no hand skills? Not an efficient way of cutting dovetails by hand or by machine to me.

Simon

[Aram]

DTs and M&Ts are really two different types of joints for different applications, one more for carcases and boxes (including drawers) and the other where butt joints are not strong enough as the joinery. I don't consider one being more difficult than the other, as both demanding more or the less the same sawing skill.

Speaking of DTs, I was surprised to be told that Michael Pekovich used a table saw, bandsaw and router, supplemented by chisels, to cut dovetails in one of his fw videos. Why not just use a dovetail jig and router if his intention was to make a video for those who have had no hand skills? Not an efficient way of cutting dovetails by hand or by machine to me.

Simon

Sure, totally true. I think Adam's point is that inexact dovetails are ugly but still functional, whereas inexact M&T means your piece will fall apart. For the record, I throw out my bad dovetails. Looks matter to me. A lot.

[OneStaple]

For the record, I throw out my bad dovetails. Looks matter to me. A lot.

Along those lines, do you all cut drawer pieces long so you have the opportunity for cutting off and redoing a joint if you're not happy with it? I realize that at some point, you have to cut pieces to the final dimensions and would only get one try on some joints, but you could prioritize where you have a chance to try again (e.g., the front joints on a drawer vs the back joints).

Or, do you cut everything to final dimensions at the beginning and only get one shot? And you'd have to fix it (slivers in gaps, etc.) or throw it out and start over if you're not happy with it.

Tyler

[Aram]

Along those lines, do you all cut drawer pieces long so you have the opportunity for cutting off and redoing a joint if you're not happy with it? I realize that at some point, you have to cut pieces to the final dimensions and would only get one try on some joints, but you could prioritize where you have a chance to try again (e.g., the front joints on a drawer vs the back joints).

Or, do you cut everything to final dimensions at the beginning and only get one shot? And you'd have to fix it (slivers in gaps, etc.) or throw it out and start over if you're not happy with it.

Tyler

Normally, I cut the sides to length and do my best. Lately... well....

[Handplanesandmore]

Unless it's a prototype or test piece, all stock must be cut to its final dimensions. If you prepared for blunders, what happened if the first try was perfect? 

Simon

[Handplanesandmore]

Regarding inexact DTs and M&Ts, the latter are sometimes easy to fix. The common beginner mistakes are about overcut/undersized tenons. That can be fixed with a veneer glued to the cheek and then planed to final thickness.

Some M&T mistakes might even be repaired by changing the joint to a wedged M&T though it could mean a lot more work as the other M&T joints might also needed to be changed.

Simon

[OneStaple]

Unless it's a prototype or test piece, all stock must be cut to its final dimensions. If you prepared for blunders, what happened if the first try was perfect?

I disagree, but would be glad to be shown wrong, especially since I've never actually done a drawer with hand cut dovetails.

Start with all four pieces longer than needed. Do the front left corner joint. Cut off and redo as necessary, and when happy cut the other end of the front and the left side to final lengths. Then do the front right. Your front can't be redone, but you could redo the side (tails) as needed until you're happy. So you might have to do tails first if you want to redo it. The back is similar, but you only get one shot on the very last joint (at least it's in the back?).

Not perfect in terms of opportunities to fix mistakes, but it is a little more forgiving than starting with all pieces at final dimensions.

Tyler