Tablesaw Choices - I went Minimax SC3

[Tapper]

I wanted to follow up on this.  I was waiting for a definitive answer on the credit card dispute and I got it today.  Its a tough lesson.

I opened up the credit card dispute on 2/18 asking for a refund for the cost of the damaged parts.  I did not ask for a refund of the entire machine.  The situation was such that I knew the best way forward for me to actually begin to use the saw was to make repairs or replace the fence from another vendor.  As a side note, the saw as of today has still never cut a piece of wood.  I went ahead and ordered my parts.  It was a 4-6 week lead on some of this and I decided to do it. 

Chase responded within a few days after 2/18 and listened to the situation and asked for documentation.  I sent them everything including emails and pictures.  The following week they got back to me and asked if I had attempted to return the Minimax saw parts to SCM Group.  I told them I had not.  The Chase rep advised me that I had to offer to return the parts and the vendor would have to refuse to accept them before the dispute would move forward.  I contacted them (keep in mind they had no contact with me after 2/2/2018).  Here is their response on 3/6:

Jeff, 

 
Good Morning. We are surely working in the background for you and to expedite the process to make your machine work as expected.  
 
Yes, it might seem we are not moving fast enough for you but I can assure you the team is working to get these replacement parts; in spite of past actions.  These replacement parts are not readily available on shelves and we have to outsource the availability internationally.  
 
As of today looking at the status of these replacement parts, collectively we are looking at the ETAs as early as this week to NLT 04/27/2018. {These dates can improve with time but we are trying to push on time to get at least 70% of the parts on-hand before sending them to you.}
 
Please, bear with us.

I responded that I really wasn't interested in waiting 5 months to have a working saw.  It was not an acceptable solution, especially in light of the fact that I could probably have it working before the end of March.  Below was their response.

Myself and the team understand part of your frustration. This is why Nelson had sent previous emails to you and we have been working to address your concerns. To clarify, there will be a 20% restocking fee and you would have to pay the cost of repackaging and shipping the machine back to us in its present state. 

 
If the machine is received with any additional damages, you will be responsible for the costs of any parts we would have to get to repair additional damages. Furthermore, you will cover the costs of our technicians to repair additional damages;  should you choose to go the route of returning this machine. 
 
We would rather you keep the machine, get the parts, have the machine working and making beautiful pieces for you to brag about to your friends. 
 
Let Me know which of these options works best for you and we will continue to arrange/cancel the parts accordingly. Thank you.


Yes you heard right.  They would only accept the entire machine, and 20% restocking fee on damaged parts.  Plus I get to pay to send them back.  This reply was on 3/7.  I printed the emails and over-nighted them to Chase immediately.  Chase responded today (3/21) by informing me that as the vendor had offered to accept the parts, I was obligated to send them and eat the fees.  I made the decision that the next step is to just go directly to small claims court -- if I want to continue.  As of today I have received no parts from Minimax, but I have received a fence from Incra, and a replacement cross cut fence from Accurate Technology.  I have to have some modifications done, but I should have a working saw by the weekend.

These people are the epitome of unprofessional and are running a scam. They are disingenuous and do not care about their customers. I would never consider buying anything from them. You are a much more patient man than I am. I wish you luck with this machine and hope you never need their help to repair it. A perfect example of "customer NO-SERVICE."

Doug

[photobug]

They promised "not later than 4/27/2018"--you responded you didn't want to wait FIVE months. Where did 5 months come from? They said you'd have the parts next month! Now you decide to take them to small claims court. I think you are being completely unreasonable at this point. What have I missed?

I would have demanded a refund from the credit card company a month after receiving the damaged saw and not gotten a confirmation from the company that new parts are on the way.  Based on the level of communication and customer service he has received so far, I would be highly sceptical on the parts arriving in April as promised.

Keep in mind this thread started out not as a product bashing thread but letting us know how the purchase of an $8,000 table saw was going to change his woodworking world.  Not only does he no longer have the thousands of dollars he spent on the saw, he must have paid the credit card already, he does not have a working saw and has spent much of his woodworking time trying to get this company to do the right thing with no luck.

[fredhargis]

It sounds to me like Chase is just following the rules they've set forth (unfortunately for you) and you are, well, pretty much screwed. The small claims court is the last chance. At least you have a plan to get functional...and I think you may have swayed many of us to avoid buying anything from Mini-Max. I'm really sorry about your plight, but at least it's been valuable to the rest of us and I thank you for that.

[R Clark]

They promised "not later than 4/27/2018"--you responded you didn't want to wait FIVE months. Where did 5 months come from? They said you'd have the parts next month! Now you decide to take them to small claims court. I think you are being completely unreasonable at this point. What have I missed?

If you consider the length of the whole process, the timeline seems to approach 5 months.

I don’t agree that OP is being unreasonable.  This is not a low-end machine and I think he’s shown an amazing amount of patience to this point.

As for Mini-Max’s actions in this, it appears that the system is built to adjudicate complaints by just waiting out the customer to make them give up and go away.  It’s their rules and bureaucratic process that are making the customer spend even more resource in time and money to get this situation resolved.  Make it expensive enough, and they can force any complainant to move on and “fuggedaboutit.”

[stav]

It's sad that this is the resolution that you are left with. For the money you paid, there should be a shinny jewel of a saw in your shop, not a broken piece of machinery. This whole thing highlights one of my main issues with buying mail order or over the internet. If you can't get your hands on the actual item you are buying, you can't check for damage, etc. Then if you need to return it, you are stuck in a situation like this.

[Tapper]

If you consider the length of the whole process, the timeline seems to approach 5 months.

I don’t agree that OP is being unreasonable.  This is not a low-end machine and I think he’s shown an amazing amount of patience to this point.

As for Mini-Max’s actions in this, it appears that the "system" is built to adjudicate complaints by just waiting out the customer to make them give up and go away.  It’s their rules and bureaucratic process that are making the customer spend even more resource in time and money to get this situation resolved.  Make it expensive enough, and they can force any complainant to move on and “fuggedaboutit.”

1) Did anyone here think that the OP was being unreasonable??? I think he's been the picture of patience.

2) It drives me nuts when people talk about the "system." The system is composed of PEOPLE. Disingenuous companies composed of greedy leaders will do anything to take advantage of their customers - this is a prime example. Were it me, I would've sent the machine back to them after the first conversation when they were non-responsive and balked at doing the right thing. It really has nothing to do with a system.

Just as an example, a company like Lee Valley or Grizzly (both CEO's roam these pages) would've taken care of a situation like this immediately IMO. They value their customers. The final response from Minimax warning the OP of the multiple charges they would stick him with should he choose to return the machine, was both chilling and telling.

Doug

[TDKPE]

Just as an example, a company like Lee Valley or Grizzly (both CEO's roam these pages) would've taken care of a situation like this immediately IMO. They value their customers. The final response from Minimax warning the OP of the multiple charges they would stick him with should he choose to return the machine, was both chilling and telling.

In the internet age, where nothing ever goes away or dies, I would think they'd be a little more careful about how they respond to a customer, as whatever they (anyone) says can slowly get around, come up in web searches, etc.  Which may have something to do with how carefully Grizzly and Lee Valley tend their reputations, since they were brought up.

I found this comment a bit insulting, by the way, even though it wasn't aimed at me.

"We would rather you keep the machine, get the parts, have the machine working and making beautiful pieces for you to brag about to your friends."

[crokett™]

the WN members who think the OP is being unreasonable are delusional. This situation should never have gotten this far. The OP is much more tolerant than I have been in a similar situation.

In addition to small claims court, I'd be calling the Minimax office of the president, raising a stink on every social media and news outlet I could find, and I'd be calling my state AG office about what protections they have for consumers. then I'd call the presidents office back and tell them I was complaining to my State AG. In my situation, that is what ultimately got the company to actually take me seriously and work to resolve the problem.

[Tapper]

In the internet age, where nothing ever goes away or dies, I would think they'd be a little more careful about how they respond to a customer, as whatever they (anyone) says can slowly get around, come up in web searches, etc.  Which may have something to do with how carefully Grizzly and Lee Valley tend their reputations, since they were brought up.

I found this comment a bit insulting, by the way, even though it wasn't aimed at me.

"We would rather you keep the machine, get the parts, have the machine working and making beautiful pieces for you to brag about to your friends."

Excellent point - this is a very patronizing statement that no representative of a quality company would ever make, let alone in writing.

Doug

[photobug]

It sounds to me like Chase is just following the rules they've set forth (unfortunately for you) and you are, well, pretty much screwed. 

I'll add Chase credit card to my list of businesses to boycott.  I thought they would have done a better job of protecting the consumer.  I wonder if the result would have been different if he contested the purchase the moment it arrived broken and before he paid that months bill.