saw making

[enjuneer]

Speaking of back saws, I was visiting Phil Baker at his home a few years ago {He had a collection of over 500 saws} and Phil showed me one of his rarest saws. I don't remember the manufacturer..It had a closed handle, and a plate about 12" long..But the brass "spine" was round, and threaded where it went through the handle..I am estimating the brass spine to have been almost 1/2" in diameter in the slotted area and about 5/16" or 3/8" through the wood handle, with a recessed nut on the inside..

I don't remember where I got the photo, but this is one that Wayne Anderson posted a few years ago. It has a tubular round spine made of brass. The stamp says "Evans".

   

This is a saw that I made as an experiment. The spine is made of two pieces of brass half-oval strips fastened together with brass screws. It works okay, though the spine is not as stiff as I'd like. It would have been more rigid if the brass had been glued to the blade, but I wanted it to be removable.

   

   

[Timberwolf]

I don't remember where I got the photo, but this is one that Wayne Anderson posted a few years ago. It has a tubular round spine made of brass. The stamp says "Evans".



This is a saw that I made as an experiment. The spine is made of two pieces of brass half-oval strips fastened together with brass screws. It works okay, though the spine is not as stiff as I'd like. It would have been more rigid if the brass had been glued to the blade, but I wanted it to be removable.

........................
That's an interesting saw, Bob..The handle looks different tho, from the one Phil had, as I recall..I wish I could find the two photos he gave me of it. If my memory serves, the spine on Phils was solid brass round stock..not tubular..I remember being particularly interested in how it was made. I do love the saw you made..The spine is a beautiful departure from the norm.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Don’t bet on anything being profitable in this day and age, Alan!  There are challenges on everything we used to take for granted!

Agreed, and I don't know that it could be profitable. But my point was in order to make it profitable you would need something automated that could produce them when needed. That is at least my understanding of the working model that Rob Lee uses. If he can't automate it with a CNC, he's probably not interested. I don't blame him. He also looks for product to buy/resell to either manufacture himself or just have other makers product product that fills out their tool line. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. Just my observation.

The boutique market is niche. Skeleton has a different mentality on crafting saws.

There are many excellent saws available, but, unless just a wall hanger, all will need sharpened.  We all seem mostly hypnotized by dovetail saws, yet to someone who uses their tools, many others are used much, much more. As to sharpening, and the reason I drifted from Japanese pull saws to Western push saws. There are all types of theories on the best of each, but I still contend anyone can saw with any saw if they get used to it. There was a guy mentioning the Pax saws in this thread somewhere up there and I wouldn't want one in my shop. But I have dozens of other saws. Let's be serious, how many do I need? This is why the ones I made are so special to me. They do all function well, and if they don't I get a file out and make them function well. I do that with my chisels and plane irons also. Do people send those out for sharpening in fear of ruining the edge?

Saw sharpening is like learning to walk. Until one can sharpen, keep jointin', filing and setting...Nobody can help but get proficient by this procedure. Even if it takes an entire saw plate. I would hope by even half dozen times a person starts getting better with it.

I'm gonna throw in another great sawmaker into the mix:  Tools for Working Wood's Gramercy saws.

They were mentioned, and Joel make a great saw, IMO.

I didn't mean to infer that milling an accurate slot in a chunk of brass is "easy", but IMO it's a heckova lot easier than making a folded back...if you know what you are doing. There's much less "hand work" once the mill, drill press whatever is set up..and once you have the machine set accurately, you can mill slots all day without much effort. I can do it on my little mini-mill.

Sorry Jack, but once a brake is made to fold the brass, it takes so much less work, all you do is put the brass in and bend in, take less than a minute. Once you have the brake setup, it's easy peazy. I agree it's not easy to do though, but Nordic made his brake with some hinges and it works to make quite a number of saws.

You had your mini-mill even before I had bought mine. Mike Wenzloff made the bulk of the saws when I knew him on a red HF mini-mill, all of them made by Seig. The HF has the R8, the Grizzly had a MT3 with a drawbar, not the tang style.

Speaking of back saws, I was visiting Phil Baker at his home a few years ago {He had a collection of over 500 saws} and Phil showed me one of his rarest saws.

That's cool in itself. He wrote some great mag articles, not sure where they came from but I got some from SimonB in the U.K. Simon did visit once when I was learning to blacksmith and came to a group meetup where we were making patch knives.

I have an unusual saw that is kinda like a half back, but it has metal partially on the rear half. Not clear if it was modified or original, I bought it from Todd Hughes. Todd used to sell a lot of used saws on Ebay.

I don't remember where I got the photo, but this is one that Wayne Anderson posted a few years ago. It has a tubular round spine made of brass. The stamp says "Evans".

Nice looking saw, kinda like a Two Lawyers wannabe, but here's the problem with this design and why it's not as stiff as you would like. Brass is very soft and bends easy, and brass screws are also. In the past there was a guy named Vlad that laminated backs and they looked pretty strong, but he used epoxy to bond the layers together, so in the end it was pretty solid with brass/epoxy/steel/epoxy/brass, it looked pretty strong to me, and they seemed stiff from the comments of people that bought them. I bet if you used a different material, like the the nickel stainless Pedder mentioned, it would probably work better. What Pedder does is solid, so even though it is brass, there isn't an issue. In fact, his backs may be stronger due to the thickness of the material. I think they look the shizzle, and the way he polishes them is beautiful. I bet plain stainless would be plenty strong, but I don't like to work it as it's so tough it's really difficult to keep things aligned, harder steels have a tendency to pull the blade off center. If you have the proper machines and know how to do it, it can be done, hence the guy Pedder knew.

My client ended my contract yesterday, so I'm doubling down on my new shop, the plans were approved last week...it's about 3 hours from me. Heading up to pay my final review and permit fees and will officially be getting a 30x40 shop that will be going in before I move the log shell up to it's foundation. I could store the shell in the shop if I wanted, but will move my machines with the timber when the shop is finished. I previously planned to use the basement for the shop, but I will use half the basement for handtool work and will be building a split-top 10' workbench, with 2 x 12" sections and a stop/holder for the center. Basically a split-top Roubo but face vise on front left will be a Klein Twin-Turbo, with a pattern maker's clone on the right front, similar to how Maloof had his bench but using a smaller clone. That will also be used for dog stops along the front. And then I plan to have a removable leg vise on the rear right, which when I pull the bench away from the wall and stand on the back side, it will be like a Roubo setup without a wagon vise. I don't think I will need it as there are so many ways to clamp on a bench like that and I have a set of holdfasts Phil Koontz made for me years ago. Have fun, see you in a couple days.

[Timberwolf]

Agreed, and I don't know that it could be profitable. But my point was in order to make it profitable you would need something automated that could produce them when needed. That is at least my understanding of the working model that Rob Lee uses. If he can't automate it with a CNC, he's probably not interested. I don't blame him. He also looks for product to buy/resell to either manufacture himself or just have other makers product product that fills out their tool line. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. Just my observation.

The boutique market is niche. Skeleton has a different mentality on crafting saws.

There are many excellent saws available, but, unless just a wall hanger, all will need sharpened.  We all seem mostly hypnotized by dovetail saws, yet to someone who uses their tools, many others are used much, much more. As to sharpening, and the reason I drifted from Japanese pull saws to Western push saws. There are all types of theories on the best of each, but I still contend anyone can saw with any saw if they get used to it. There was a guy mentioning the Pax saws in this thread somewhere up there and I wouldn't want one in my shop. But I have dozens of other saws. Let's be serious, how many do I need? This is why the ones I made are so special to me. They do all function well, and if they don't I get a file out and make them function well. I do that with my chisels and plane irons also. Do people send those out for sharpening in fear of ruining the edge?

Saw sharpening is like learning to walk. Until one can sharpen, keep jointin', filing and setting...Nobody can help but get proficient by this procedure. Even if it takes an entire saw plate. I would hope by even half dozen times a person starts getting better with it.

They were mentioned,  and Joel make a great saw, IMO.

Sorry Jack, but once a brake is made to fold the brass, it takes so much less work, all you do is put the brass in and bend in, take less than a minute. Once you have the brake setup, it's easy peazy. I agree it's not easy to do though, but Nordic made his brake with some hinges and it works to make quite a number of saws.

You had your mini-mill even before I had bought mine. Mike Wenzloff made the bulk of the saws when I knew him on a red HF mini-mill, all of them made by Seig. The HF has the R8, the Grizzly had a MT3 with a drawbar, not the tang style.

That's cool in itself. He wrote some great mag articles, not sure where they came from but I got some from SimonB in the U.K. Simon did visit once when I was learning to blacksmith and came to a group meetup where we were making patch knives.

I have an unusual saw that is kinda like a half back, but it has metal partially on the rear half. Not clear if it was modified or original, I bought it from Todd Hughes. Todd used to sell a lot of used saws on Ebay.

Nice looking saw, kinda like a Two Lawyers wannabe, but here's the problem with this design and why it's not as stiff as you would like. Brass is very soft and bends easy, and brass screws are also. In the past there was a guy named Vlad that laminated backs and they looked pretty strong, but he used epoxy to bond the layers together, so in the end it was pretty solid with brass/epoxy/steel/epoxy/brass, it looked pretty strong to me, and they seemed stiff from the comments of people that bought them. I bet if you used a different material, like the the nickel stainless Pedder mentioned, it would probably work better. What Pedder does is solid, so even though it is brass, there isn't an issue. In fact, his backs may be stronger due to the thickness of the material. I think they look the shizzle, and the way he polishes them is beautiful. I bet plain stainless would be plenty strong, but I don't like to work it as it's so tough it's really difficult to keep things aligned, harder steels have a tendency to pull the blade off center. If you have the proper machines and know how to do it, it can be done, hence the guy Pedder knew.

My client ended my contract yesterday, so I'm doubling down on my new shop, the plans were approved last week...it's about 3 hours from me. Heading up to pay my final review and permit fees and will officially be getting a 30x40 shop that will be going in before I move the log shell up to it's foundation. I could store the shell in the shop if I wanted, but will move my machines with the timber when the shop is finished. I previously planned to use the basement for the shop, but I will use half the basement for handtool work and will be building a split-top 10' workbench, with 2 x 12" sections  and a stop/holder for the center. Basically a split-top Roubo but face vise on front left will be a Klein Twin-Turbo, with a pattern maker's clone on the right front, similar to how Maloof had his bench but using a smaller clone. That will also be used for dog stops along the front. And then I plan to have a removable leg vise on the rear right, which when I pull the bench away from the wall and stand on the back side, it will be like a Roubo setup without a wagon vise. I don't think I will need it as there are so many ways to clamp on a bench like that and I have a set of holdfasts Phil Koontz made for me years ago. Have fun, see you in a couple days.

.....................
Allan, I will stand on my belief that slots are easier to make in brass once the machine has been set up, because there's little to be done to them afterwards, compared to a folded back..after it comes out of the fixture..They are not "blemish free" when the bender has done its job.Especially with the fixture Nordic created.He and I made one about the same time, and were very similar in design. I had made one many years before that when I was making "early American" outdoor lamps out of sheet copper and glass. {another hobby of mine
}...

"In the past there was a guy named Vlad that laminated backs and they looked pretty strong, but he used epoxy to bond the layers together, so in the end it was pretty solid with brass/epoxy/steel/epoxy/brass, it looked pretty strong to me, and they seemed stiff from the comments of people that bought them."

I tried my best to remember Vlad's name and it hit me when you mentioned it..HE is why I made my saw the way I did. It seemed to me that if I could guarantee the brass spine made absolutely FULL contact with the saw plate, the saw would be stiffer in use and less likely to flex. I used JB Weld to bond them and so far, after more than ten years, the glue has done its job.I was prepared to repair it using rivets if it became necessary...I still have three handles that I "started" a few years ago, thinking I would make more saws, but the "fascination" with saws has worn off and I am quite sure they will never be used.

[John Walkowiak]

"I don't remember where I got the photo, but this is one that Wayne Anderson posted a few years ago. It has a tubular round spine made of brass. The stamp says "Evans"."


This saw that Wayne posted was mine, has since gone to another collector. It is English and was a surgeon's bone saw!  The original handle would have been ebony. I have seen other surgical saws with the round spine. I could not tell how the plate was inlet into the back. 

[john jesseph]

I’ve made only a few saws. I have the hardware for a couple more, that I got from Mike Wenzloff quite a few years ago. The saws I have work pretty well, so I felt little pressure to follow through. I think I have 2 or 3 brass backs from him, bent, and very crisp.

[Timberwolf]

I’ve made only a few saws. I have the hardware for a couple more, that I got from Mike Wenzloff quite a few years ago. The saws I have work pretty well, so I felt little pressure to follow through. I think I have 2 or 3 brass backs from him, bent, and very crisp.

.................
I wonder if Mike is still on the planet?? I remember him having some pretty serious health problems but I lost track of him when he stopped posting.

[john jesseph]

I hope he is still around and doing ok. I bought my parts in 2010, and then lost contact with him shortly after.

[iclark]

.................
I wonder if Mike is still on the planet?? I remember him having some pretty serious health problems but I lost track of him when he stopped posting.

I tried googling to see if I could find an answer. My google-fu is not up to it today.

That said, I did find this post on Lost Art Press that I thought that some here might find interesting:

David says:
September 11, 2021 at 7:24 pm

Walt Quadrato of Brass City Tools passed away a few years back. Sandy Moss was still active last I checked but his website stopped updating in 2019. Mike Wenzloff saws out of business for years, Isaac Smith/Blackburn Tools not taking orders, Old Street Tools back-ordered or not taking I think. Nic Westermann has a waitlist stretching out past two years and no longer makes his superlative carving axe. Good luck getting your hands on any of Svante Djarv or Hans Karlssen’s fine Swedish smithing, and Drew Langsner’s Country Workshops has closed (though the Kortemeiers in Maine have picked up where he left off). Traditional Woodworker was a smaller catalog with some hard to find log and timber framing tools, until they vanished unexpectedly. Stu (“Schtoo”) of Japan Tool shuttered his interesting site and a fellow named So with amazing access and expertise in Japanese tools seems to be permanently waitlisted to forever. There are new makers and sites for some (but not all) these—but it hit me that many of the bookmarks I have from a certain vintage are defunct.

You’re dang right Chris Schwarz, don’t wait forever because apparently the world doesn’t stand still, not even for insanely perfect hand tools. Who knew?

Thank goodness for Rob Lee at Veritas and Thomas Lie-Nielsen, both of whom will hopefully emerge stronger than ever from the current shortages, and a shout out to Lost Art Press for having the moxie to prosper in weird times. Thanks for the reminder. I’m gonna go check my Titemark blade supply right now.

David

[TraditionalToolworks]

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Allan, I will stand on my belief that slots are easier to make in brass once the machine has been set up, because there's little to be done to them afterwards, compared to a folded back..after it comes out of the fixture..They are not "blemish free" when the bender has done its job.Especially with the fixture Nordic created.He and I made one about the same time, and were very similar in design. I had made one many years before that when I was making "early American" outdoor lamps out of sheet copper and glass. {another hobby of mine
}...

No worries, as I said, I think it's all preference. It's just a bit harder and takes longer to. You and Mike were the reason I got the mini-mill, but it was after I was banned from Woodnet. I took mine entirely apart, cleaned everything and lubed it as should be, disassembled the column and add the belt option and the gas shock to raise/lower, most of that stuff is available from The Little Machine Shop. But for me I soon realized that yes, the mini-mill could slot brass ok, although limited in length, it's just subpar machine parts. And as I learned more about alloys I wanted to get away from brass due to deteriorating of the zinc is marine conditions. Bronze that was sunken in ships survived where brass ended up like a sponge where the zinc was eaten. I know we don't live in the bottom of the ocean, but bronze is just better material and if you have ever machined it compared to brass, they are very different other than chips are very small and powdery. I know people that have done XLNT work on mini-mills and mini-lathes, but I just wanted something more solid, and vintage industrial machines were so cheap...the only thing is they're heavy. I moved the mini-mill in a hatchback, I can't do that with my machines. The mini-mill started my metalworking, but I do have more woodworking machines as the intention has always been to build a log house. That goes back to about 2000 when I bought the property. I'll send you a link to my VintageMachinery page, the 'ol tailed apprentices are not appreciate around here I don't imagine.

Mike had a bigger Grizzly mill when I was visiting him, but hadn't put it into operation, it looked like a better machine than the mini-mill, but I will never get another one of those. For small work I would get something like a Rusnok.

I tried my best to remember Vlad's name and it hit me when you mentioned it..HE is why I made my saw the way I did. It seemed to me that if I could guarantee the brass spine made absolutely FULL contact with the saw plate, the saw would be stiffer in use and less likely to flex. I used JB Weld to bond them and so far, after more than ten years, the glue has done its job.I was prepared to repair it using rivets if it became necessary...I still have three handles that I "started" a few years ago, thinking I would make more saws, but the "fascination" with saws has worn off and I am quite sure they will never be used.

I think his saws were called Zepher, but can't remember, and I can't remember his last name, only his first. This is one of the better techniques to use for a saw, and yes, I remember your saw of course. I remember asking you metalworking questions when I was trying to figure out how to make a split-nut. Now Mike was different, he bought all of his split-nuts and had his name edged on the larger medallion style. But I didn't want to buy such a large qty, they would only sell in lots of 500 or 1000. For Mike that was good.that is how I am.

Had I just bought the split-nuts it would have saved me time and a LOT of money, but what's the fun in that? I like to make stuff. So, I bought a 1946 South Bend 9A. It came out of the Levi Strauss factory in San Francisco, they bought it new. Still has the inventory tag on it. I did learn quite a bit on that machine, but it is really the minimal machine that should be considered a lathe, IMO. The mini-lathes are really poor. However, I know people from my local metalworking group that did some amazing work on them, tools they made to use on them, etc...so just like the mini-mill it's all relative, and don't read too much into my words, I have a lot of haters for what I say, or how I say it. If most of us met each other we'd get along just fine in my experience, but the Internet obfuscates that piece. We're all different.